6 ms·

The 100-Year Software Application

31 points by Baustin 14y ago

showerst 14y ago
I think a big part of this is that business requirements for software tend to change pretty quickly; where the requirements for physical things don't. A desk from 1900 almost exactly fits the requirements for a desk in 2013 (other than what's in style, and the 'timeless' look often works). Even the 'foundational' software and reports in a business have to change due to the market and goals of the business evolving.
- biofox 14y ago
  Antique desks don't have cable holes or filing drawers, but they're still desirable for their robustness and elegance. A similar statement could be made for UNIX utilities.
politician 14y ago
I have an acquaintance who works in the Gulf of Mexico anchoring platforms to the sea floor. They rate their anchors by the size of the storms they're engineered to withstand - a 10 year storm, a 100 year storm, etc. It's more difficult and correspondingly more expensive to place a "100 year storm" anchor. It's hard to argue with the reality that not all jobs require "100 year storm" anchors. Arguing that software engineering is different is a result of inexperience. Not everything we build needs a "Rolls Royce" level of polish or a "Golden Gate Bridge" level of reliability nor is it a sustainable approach. Economic realities will drag your architecture astronauts back to Earth. Spend time understanding the needs of your critical infrastructure and design for that.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  The message I got from this article is that there is something deeply satisfying about doing "100 year storm" work, not than that it is economically feasible or wise. The reference to woodworking and how unprofitable it is seems to imply that it is inherently uneconomical. Not everything we build needs "Rolls Royce" level of polish, but it might be nice to build a few things to that level of polish. Compared to the amount of code that is being written, vanishingly little of it, if any, is really being built to stand the test of time, even if it is being built to very high standards.
  - ohjeez 14y ago
    I'm the author of that post. And I certainly did not mean to imply that 100-year-furniture is not economical! It costs more in the short-term (for instance, the Stickley couch I bought was $6,000), but I know it'll last for decades, so I don't begrudge a cent of that expense. Especially since it's so gosh-durn beautiful and comfortable and does exactly what I want -- just as good software does.
    - jfoutz 14y ago
      I got my great grandma's couch reupholstered. The couch itself was free to me and I expect it to outlive me as well. I'm pretty sure she didn't get it new. I'm guessing manufactured in 1880 or so. I dunno. It's pretty comfortable, and as you say, that couch problem is solved.
    - fusiongyro 14y ago
      I'm sorry for both misunderstanding and misrepresenting your argument. I'll have to give a proper response some thought.
      - ohjeez 14y ago
        Thank you for such a gracious reply! In turn, I should apologize for writing something that could so easily be misinterpreted.
        fusiongyro 14y ago
        Oh hardly!
- Someone 14y ago
  100 years is peanuts, relative to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeslantkering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeslantkering, which was designed for a 10,000 year storm. Basically, the greater the damage if anything goes wrong, the sturdier things should be. This one has been in operation for 15 years, but has never been truly used yet.
pnathan 14y ago
I'm pretty sure that emacs and vi(m) fit into this category, as do a number of unix command line tools (wc, cat, grep). Outside of that... heh... I hope most of the drek out there is replaced.
- edwinnathaniel 14y ago
  Eclipse exists since 2001/2002 and still one of the most popular IDE. I don't think Eclipse is going to go anywhere in the next 10 years. Emacs/Vim definitely exist longer but Eclipse is joining the ranks.
  - jmount 14y ago
    Eclipse survival is an interesting question. I like it and use it all the time, but I kind of figure it is so integrated to its environment that it will go extinct quickly when another environment becomes dominant.
    - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
      It will still float around for some time... Thing about Eclipse is that it is cross-platform and have bajillion plugins.
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    Would you say the same about Visual Studio? Netbeans? These have had longer tenure than Eclipse. What makes emacs/vim longer-lasting to me is their reach across platforms _and_ their simplicy of interface. When a new interface comes out, they just plug in to the old terminal emulator that's already stood the test of 30ish years...
    - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
      You can say that for VS.NET and NetBeans. Eclipse is also cross-platform and once you thought Java development dried up comes along Android. I've seen some C/C++ people in the embedded world to use Eclipse more and more lately.
theorique 14y ago
Most serious woodworkers talk about creating "100-year furniture." You won't get rich as a custom woodworker, but you can be reasonably sure that the table you built will be used by the grandchildren of the client for whom you build it today. I read someone's comment on IKEA furniture recently: "you are buying furniture that you and your descendants will use for hundreds of days"
- jfoutz 14y ago
  I would guess it varies with model. The Poang chairs are afaict flagship products. Mine are about a decade old now, but replaced the cushions once. I have to retighten the bolts every couple of years. I can imagine kids breaking them from being dumb, but from ordinary (daily) use, they don't seem any worse for wear.
  - theorique 14y ago
    I busted a Poäng chair once - the wood of the vertical pieces closest to the floor split and I fell backwards. However, I think was quite a few years old and a floor model, so who knows what abuse it was subjected to in the store. Supposedly, Ingvar Kamprad has a 30+ year old Poäng.
FollowSteph3 14y ago
Certain types of solutions are more likely to last. For example an iPhone app is not likely to still be used in 100 years but say a core compression algorithm could. Basically UI centric solutions have a shorter span on average than Algorithms to complex problems.
alexkus 14y ago
There are a few source files in one of our applications[1] that have last modified dates back in 1994. 1. Mostly C application that's had >$1bn in sales over the years, but it's been in active development/enhancement since 1992. My oldest contribution to it is probably 1997.
utopkara 14y ago
Businesses are more like software than furniture are. The Japanese hotel, Hoshi Ryokan, that is still run by the same family over 1300 years must have some really good "software".
- utopkara 14y ago
  Here's the list of oldest companies to get inspiration from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
rumcajz 14y ago
I was using troff yesterday. The technology dates back to '60s and is still widely used.
kawera 14y ago
Dan Bricklin wrote a very nice article on the subject: http://changethis.com/manifesto/show/6.200YearSoftware http://changethis.com/manifesto/show/6.200YearSoftware

31 points by Baustin 14y ago

I think a big part of this is that business requirements for software tend to change pretty quickly; where the requirements for physical things don't. A desk from 1900 almost exactly fits the requirements for a desk in 2013 (other than what's in style, and the 'timeless' look often works). Even the 'foundational' software and reports in a business have to change due to the market and goals of the business evolving.

biofox 14y ago
Antique desks don't have cable holes or filing drawers, but they're still desirable for their robustness and elegance. A similar statement could be made for UNIX utilities.

politician 14y ago

I have an acquaintance who works in the Gulf of Mexico anchoring platforms to the sea floor. They rate their anchors by the size of the storms they're engineered to withstand - a 10 year storm, a 100 year storm, etc. It's more difficult and correspondingly more expensive to place a "100 year storm" anchor. It's hard to argue with the reality that not all jobs require "100 year storm" anchors. Arguing that software engineering is different is a result of inexperience. Not everything we build needs a "Rolls Royce" level of polish or a "Golden Gate Bridge" level of reliability nor is it a sustainable approach. Economic realities will drag your architecture astronauts back to Earth. Spend time understanding the needs of your critical infrastructure and design for that.

fusiongyro 14y ago
The message I got from this article is that there is something deeply satisfying about doing "100 year storm" work, not than that it is economically feasible or wise. The reference to woodworking and how unprofitable it is seems to imply that it is inherently uneconomical. Not everything we build needs "Rolls Royce" level of polish, but it might be nice to build a few things to that level of polish. Compared to the amount of code that is being written, vanishingly little of it, if any, is really being built to stand the test of time, even if it is being built to very high standards.
- ohjeez 14y ago
  I'm the author of that post. And I certainly did not mean to imply that 100-year-furniture is not economical! It costs more in the short-term (for instance, the Stickley couch I bought was $6,000), but I know it'll last for decades, so I don't begrudge a cent of that expense. Especially since it's so gosh-durn beautiful and comfortable and does exactly what I want -- just as good software does.
  - jfoutz 14y ago
    I got my great grandma's couch reupholstered. The couch itself was free to me and I expect it to outlive me as well. I'm pretty sure she didn't get it new. I'm guessing manufactured in 1880 or so. I dunno. It's pretty comfortable, and as you say, that couch problem is solved.
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    I'm sorry for both misunderstanding and misrepresenting your argument. I'll have to give a proper response some thought.
    - ohjeez 14y ago
      Thank you for such a gracious reply! In turn, I should apologize for writing something that could so easily be misinterpreted.
      - fusiongyro 14y ago
        Oh hardly!
Someone 14y ago
100 years is peanuts, relative to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeslantkering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeslantkering, which was designed for a 10,000 year storm. Basically, the greater the damage if anything goes wrong, the sturdier things should be. This one has been in operation for 15 years, but has never been truly used yet.

pnathan 14y ago

I'm pretty sure that emacs and vi(m) fit into this category, as do a number of unix command line tools (wc, cat, grep). Outside of that... heh... I hope most of the drek out there is replaced.

edwinnathaniel 14y ago
Eclipse exists since 2001/2002 and still one of the most popular IDE. I don't think Eclipse is going to go anywhere in the next 10 years. Emacs/Vim definitely exist longer but Eclipse is joining the ranks.
- jmount 14y ago
  Eclipse survival is an interesting question. I like it and use it all the time, but I kind of figure it is so integrated to its environment that it will go extinct quickly when another environment becomes dominant.
  - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
    It will still float around for some time... Thing about Eclipse is that it is cross-platform and have bajillion plugins.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  Would you say the same about Visual Studio? Netbeans? These have had longer tenure than Eclipse. What makes emacs/vim longer-lasting to me is their reach across platforms _and_ their simplicy of interface. When a new interface comes out, they just plug in to the old terminal emulator that's already stood the test of 30ish years...
  - edwinnathaniel 14y ago
    You can say that for VS.NET and NetBeans. Eclipse is also cross-platform and once you thought Java development dried up comes along Android. I've seen some C/C++ people in the embedded world to use Eclipse more and more lately.

theorique 14y ago

Most serious woodworkers talk about creating "100-year furniture." You won't get rich as a custom woodworker, but you can be reasonably sure that the table you built will be used by the grandchildren of the client for whom you build it today. I read someone's comment on IKEA furniture recently: "you are buying furniture that you and your descendants will use for hundreds of days"

jfoutz 14y ago
I would guess it varies with model. The Poang chairs are afaict flagship products. Mine are about a decade old now, but replaced the cushions once. I have to retighten the bolts every couple of years. I can imagine kids breaking them from being dumb, but from ordinary (daily) use, they don't seem any worse for wear.
- theorique 14y ago
  I busted a Poäng chair once - the wood of the vertical pieces closest to the floor split and I fell backwards. However, I think was quite a few years old and a floor model, so who knows what abuse it was subjected to in the store. Supposedly, Ingvar Kamprad has a 30+ year old Poäng.

FollowSteph3 14y ago

Certain types of solutions are more likely to last. For example an iPhone app is not likely to still be used in 100 years but say a core compression algorithm could. Basically UI centric solutions have a shorter span on average than Algorithms to complex problems.

alexkus 14y ago

There are a few source files in one of our applications[1] that have last modified dates back in 1994. 1. Mostly C application that's had >$1bn in sales over the years, but it's been in active development/enhancement since 1992. My oldest contribution to it is probably 1997.

utopkara 14y ago

Businesses are more like software than furniture are. The Japanese hotel, Hoshi Ryokan, that is still run by the same family over 1300 years must have some really good "software".

utopkara 14y ago
Here's the list of oldest companies to get inspiration from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies

rumcajz 14y ago

I was using troff yesterday. The technology dates back to '60s and is still widely used.

kawera 14y ago

Dan Bricklin wrote a very nice article on the subject: http://changethis.com/manifesto/show/6.200YearSoftware http://changethis.com/manifesto/show/6.200YearSoftware