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Yes, TurboTax is being rather transparently venal, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. I doubt the American government is competent enough to get tax calculati

Yes, TurboTax is being rather transparently venal, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. I doubt the American government is competent enough to get tax calculations right, and I suspect they're hungry enough for revenue to make all their default assumptions in their favor. At least that's been my experience with every state and federal tax authority I've dealt with for the past half-decade or so. Once we have a tax code that's simple enough and a government that's competent enough to get things right, then we can talk about having the government fill out our tax forms. Until then, the government's just going to be ripping off the blindly trusting, a little bit at a time.

danso 14y ago
> Once we have a tax code that's simple enough and a government that's competent enough to get think right How do you foresee this happening if we -- the government and the public -- maintain a status quo in which feasible optimizations are never pursued because hey, we have a private alternative that doesn't charge too much to do it? For the government to become more competent, the people have to demand reform. For people to demand reform, they have to be aware of how much better things could be. Private competition helps spur that reform, but this doesn't mean that the government shouldn't itself be expected to optimize things. This is not an either-or zero sum game
- gyardley 14y ago
  I'm arguing that without these prerequisites, this 'optimization' isn't an optimization at all - it'll be a step backwards, because it'll just end up ripping people off. People certainly should demand reform, but not this particular reform at this particular time. People should absolutely demand a simpler tax code - I don't know about you, but I'm still holding out hope we'll see some tax reform in 2013. 'Competent government' is a harder problem. Americans aren't Norwegians or Germans, and simply aren't good at large bureaucracy. Unless America starts subcontracting out its administration to the Swedes, better government is going to take either a change in American character or something smaller and less-centralized.
  - danso 14y ago
    > Americans aren't Norwegians or Germans, and simply aren't good at large bureaucracy. Unless America starts subcontracting out its administration to the Swedes, better government is going to take either a change in American character or something smaller and less-centralized. This is a strange assertion, as if Swedes had an innate gene that allowed them to be more adept when they joined public service. Let's assume that that's not true and it's an ability learned through environment and civic education...I'm arguing that that reaching this ideal situation of "good character" will require -- when it is possible -- to make interaction with the government more efficient. Else, you may end up in a situation in which citizens are so distrustful of the government that they never see the point of achieving good civic character. And then we never end up being as good as the Germans and the Swedes.
justin66 14y ago
> I doubt the American government is competent enough to get tax calculations right, and I suspect they're hungry enough for revenue to make all their default assumptions in their favor. That is the way it works NOW. With the described changes the difference is that you would hear about it earlier rather than later. Today, the IRS absolutely will send you a letter with a bill a couple of years after you pay your taxes if your calculations don't match theirs. For an ordinary tax bill getting your interpretation on paper first isn't really a big advantage. > Once we have a tax code that's simple enough I wonder if simplicity isn't overrated, particularly in this age of computers and so on. It's not like we have to calculate everything with an abacus. On the other hand, I've noticed that the tax plans that are touted by political groups as being simple would generally cost me money to the benefit of people who make more than I do. This holds true pretty close to 100% of the time. I don't value simplicity THAT highly.
Joeri 14y ago
They're not competent enough to make an initial proposal for how much taxes are due, but they are competent enough to doublecheck a manually filled out tax statement and not send you a tax bill which you don't owe them? The blindly trusting will get ripped off regardless of whether returns are prefilled, assuming a government set on tax fraud (an irrational assumption in my opinion.) Prefilled returns are the opening round in a negotiation with the government. In any bargaining situation the opening offer is the weakest party. You should prefer them to make the opening offer, especially if you distrust them. Better that you check their numbers rather than them checking yours.

danso 14y ago

> Once we have a tax code that's simple enough and a government that's competent enough to get think right How do you foresee this happening if we -- the government and the public -- maintain a status quo in which feasible optimizations are never pursued because hey, we have a private alternative that doesn't charge too much to do it? For the government to become more competent, the people have to demand reform. For people to demand reform, they have to be aware of how much better things could be. Private competition helps spur that reform, but this doesn't mean that the government shouldn't itself be expected to optimize things. This is not an either-or zero sum game

gyardley 14y ago
I'm arguing that without these prerequisites, this 'optimization' isn't an optimization at all - it'll be a step backwards, because it'll just end up ripping people off. People certainly should demand reform, but not this particular reform at this particular time. People should absolutely demand a simpler tax code - I don't know about you, but I'm still holding out hope we'll see some tax reform in 2013. 'Competent government' is a harder problem. Americans aren't Norwegians or Germans, and simply aren't good at large bureaucracy. Unless America starts subcontracting out its administration to the Swedes, better government is going to take either a change in American character or something smaller and less-centralized.
- danso 14y ago
  > Americans aren't Norwegians or Germans, and simply aren't good at large bureaucracy. Unless America starts subcontracting out its administration to the Swedes, better government is going to take either a change in American character or something smaller and less-centralized. This is a strange assertion, as if Swedes had an innate gene that allowed them to be more adept when they joined public service. Let's assume that that's not true and it's an ability learned through environment and civic education...I'm arguing that that reaching this ideal situation of "good character" will require -- when it is possible -- to make interaction with the government more efficient. Else, you may end up in a situation in which citizens are so distrustful of the government that they never see the point of achieving good civic character. And then we never end up being as good as the Germans and the Swedes.

justin66 14y ago

> I doubt the American government is competent enough to get tax calculations right, and I suspect they're hungry enough for revenue to make all their default assumptions in their favor. That is the way it works NOW. With the described changes the difference is that you would hear about it earlier rather than later. Today, the IRS absolutely will send you a letter with a bill a couple of years after you pay your taxes if your calculations don't match theirs. For an ordinary tax bill getting your interpretation on paper first isn't really a big advantage. > Once we have a tax code that's simple enough I wonder if simplicity isn't overrated, particularly in this age of computers and so on. It's not like we have to calculate everything with an abacus. On the other hand, I've noticed that the tax plans that are touted by political groups as being simple would generally cost me money to the benefit of people who make more than I do. This holds true pretty close to 100% of the time. I don't value simplicity THAT highly.

Joeri 14y ago

They're not competent enough to make an initial proposal for how much taxes are due, but they are competent enough to doublecheck a manually filled out tax statement and not send you a tax bill which you don't owe them? The blindly trusting will get ripped off regardless of whether returns are prefilled, assuming a government set on tax fraud (an irrational assumption in my opinion.) Prefilled returns are the opening round in a negotiation with the government. In any bargaining situation the opening offer is the weakest party. You should prefer them to make the opening offer, especially if you distrust them. Better that you check their numbers rather than them checking yours.