3 ms·

I still don't understand why authors keep addressing this as a sexual harassment, to the best of my knowledge the jokes weren't referring to her. How can you ha

I still don't understand why authors keep addressing this as a sexual harassment, to the best of my knowledge the jokes weren't referring to her. How can you harass a person with a joke that wasn't directed to her?

danielweber 14y ago
You can make a harrasing environment even without directly addressing someone.
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mpyne 14y ago
There is a concept in law and HR of a "hostile work environment", which is why the original joke would have been unacceptable per the PyCon conference guidelines that attendees agreed to. It's not necessarily harassment of her in particular, but that doesn't make a backdrop of sexual innuendo and double entendre appropriate for a professional conference either. The actual joke wasn't really that bad (certainly not to the point of warranting termination of employment), but I can understand why Adria would be uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn't feel welcome at a music festival where an audience was talking about all the geeks they'd be giving wedgies to, even if they weren't talking to or about me specifically. The issue with Adria was what in particular she chose to complain about (mere sex jokes are indeed not harrassment of her in particular, and make her look hypocritical), and especially how she went about it.
DanBC 14y ago
There are 2 points here. 1) Is it sexism? 2) This wasn't aimed at her 1) It's a recent-historical thing. Ignore for a moment this situation. Imagine a hypothetical situation. There is an engineer, Ann. Behind Ann at a conference are Bob and Chris tell a joke about penises. Plenty of cases exist that show Bob and Chris are creating an environment that is hostile to Ann; and this has traditionally been handled under sexual discrimination laws. You're right in that plenty of women enjoy telling penis jokes and that plenty of men are just as offended at penis jokes and that we shouldn't be treating women as delicate flowers that will curl up when hearing a penis joke. But all of that is missing the point. Don't tell dick jokes around people that you don't know well. Especially do not tell dick jokes while wearing a shirt with your employer's logo on, with a conference pass around your neck, at a professional conference, while surrounded by a bunch of people who you don't know. It might not meet some strict definition of sexism, but it will meet definitions of harassment. 2) Imagine Ann walks into the workplace. Bob has topless calenders up in his cubicle. These are not aimed at Ann. There are plenty of cases to show that Bob is creating a hostile work environment for Ann, and again these have been handled under sex discrimination law. You don't have to do something to Ann for it to be sexism that affects Ann.

danielweber 14y ago

You can make a harrasing environment even without directly addressing someone.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

mpyne 14y ago

There is a concept in law and HR of a "hostile work environment", which is why the original joke would have been unacceptable per the PyCon conference guidelines that attendees agreed to. It's not necessarily harassment of her in particular, but that doesn't make a backdrop of sexual innuendo and double entendre appropriate for a professional conference either. The actual joke wasn't really that bad (certainly not to the point of warranting termination of employment), but I can understand why Adria would be uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn't feel welcome at a music festival where an audience was talking about all the geeks they'd be giving wedgies to, even if they weren't talking to or about me specifically. The issue with Adria was what in particular she chose to complain about (mere sex jokes are indeed not harrassment of her in particular, and make her look hypocritical), and especially how she went about it.

DanBC 14y ago

There are 2 points here. 1) Is it sexism? 2) This wasn't aimed at her 1) It's a recent-historical thing. Ignore for a moment this situation. Imagine a hypothetical situation. There is an engineer, Ann. Behind Ann at a conference are Bob and Chris tell a joke about penises. Plenty of cases exist that show Bob and Chris are creating an environment that is hostile to Ann; and this has traditionally been handled under sexual discrimination laws. You're right in that plenty of women enjoy telling penis jokes and that plenty of men are just as offended at penis jokes and that we shouldn't be treating women as delicate flowers that will curl up when hearing a penis joke. But all of that is missing the point. Don't tell dick jokes around people that you don't know well. Especially do not tell dick jokes while wearing a shirt with your employer's logo on, with a conference pass around your neck, at a professional conference, while surrounded by a bunch of people who you don't know. It might not meet some strict definition of sexism, but it will meet definitions of harassment. 2) Imagine Ann walks into the workplace. Bob has topless calenders up in his cubicle. These are not aimed at Ann. There are plenty of cases to show that Bob is creating a hostile work environment for Ann, and again these have been handled under sex discrimination law. You don't have to do something to Ann for it to be sexism that affects Ann.