6 ms·

It is not in your best interest to be a criminal. So why are people criminals? We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the

by Aqueous 14y ago

It is not in your best interest to be a criminal. So why are people criminals? We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the brain the more it turns out to be a fantasy.

somelogicplease 14y ago
If you don't have free will, you can't decide to give up its notion.
mpyne 14y ago
> We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the brain the more it turns out to be a fantasy. If you're right, there's no possible way for us to "give up" this notion... it's predestined to end up whichever way it ends up and we're just cogs in the machine.
- lukifer 14y ago
  It's not that free will does not exist; rather, it is a faulty model. It is causality without a cause. Saying "I decided to take action X due to biological force Y and social pressure Z" does not mean a decision did not take place. We must believe in our own agency in order to function, but understanding its mechanisms and limits increases that agency, rather than removing it.
- Aqueous 14y ago
  Free will and self-awareness are different, but we seem to confuse them a lot. We are a cognitive agent and can know many different kinds of facts. Our lack of free will is just another fact that we might become aware of.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    > Our lack of free will is just another fact that we might become aware of. Sure, but even if it's a fact there's no use arguing about giving up the notion of free will because it's not under "our" control whether we will or won't, no matter how self-aware we might be. Self awareness is the easy part. I can run lm_sensors on my box at home to let the computer know about its own motherboard temperature and many other things, but it's still not a cognitive machine.
    - Aqueous 14y ago
      Right, I agree. It is not our decision when we collectively stop thinking we have free will. It might not happen at all. When I say "We ought to" I really only mean that facts point in one direction, and our beliefs point in another, and whenever they become aligned we'll be better off.
lukifer 14y ago
Counterpoint: It is not in your best interest to be an unsuccessful criminal. Many successful criminals are quite rational, whether they are drug lords or banking executives. I'm on board with the idea of a post-free-will justice system; I believe a health-centric approach would have much greater efficacy. However, I also don't think punitive pressures should be removed entirely; there are a lot more high-functioning sociopaths weaved into the human fabric than anyone wants to admit.
cobrausn 14y ago
The notion of free will isn't silly - 'giving up' on it is an absurd suggestion. It appears to serve a very useful purpose towards enabling us to not all be sociopaths, and is possibly fundamental to our view of self as rational agents in society. Without it, we immediately start 'misbehaving'. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?pagewa...
- Aqueous 14y ago
  You don't have to believe in free will to behave well towards others. You could simply have a rational belief that this mode of behavior leads to greater shared happiness, and that's enough of a justification for it.
  - cobrausn 14y ago
    That becomes less and less likely the more we think we can get away with, or if we can rationalize that nobody really gets hurt (cheating on an exam, for example). 'Free Will', and the belief that, ultimately, decisions made by you are yours and you are responsible for them seems like something we evolved for a reason. Even if it is an illusion (likely but not proven), it's a damn useful one.
sp332 14y ago
It is not in your best interest to be a criminal. My grandfather worked at the state prison in New Hampshire. One of the inmates would break into a house and wait for the cops to show up so they'd take him back to prison. One time, a judge decreased his sentence for good behavior. He was pretty shaken up about it. We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the brain the more it turns out to be a fantasy. It might be difficult or impossible to change your behavior on a moment's notice, but with practice, you can change it. http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness.html http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_ha...
- Crake 14y ago
  This reminds me a little of the old man in The Shawshank Redemption who was unable to live outside of the prison he'd spent his whole life in. :( Do you know why the guy in your grandfather's story wanted to go back in?
  - sp332 14y ago
    Well I never met him, but they said he was just there for the bed and food. He wasn't dumb or anything... in fact he cracked the security on the new electronic cell-door system with a ballpoint pen he lifted from a guard. He walked right down to the warden's office to tell him about it. (That's when the judge commuted his sentence, thinking he was doing the guy a favor.)
    - Crake 14y ago
      That's pretty impressive. Makes him sound a bit like Richard Feynman, actually.
- Aqueous 14y ago
  Changing your behavior is just your brain ( a program ) learning to reprogram itself. It's still a program.
  - sp332 14y ago

by Aqueous 14y ago

somelogicplease 14y ago

If you don't have free will, you can't decide to give up its notion.

mpyne 14y ago

> We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the brain the more it turns out to be a fantasy. If you're right, there's no possible way for us to "give up" this notion... it's predestined to end up whichever way it ends up and we're just cogs in the machine.

lukifer 14y ago
It's not that free will does not exist; rather, it is a faulty model. It is causality without a cause. Saying "I decided to take action X due to biological force Y and social pressure Z" does not mean a decision did not take place. We must believe in our own agency in order to function, but understanding its mechanisms and limits increases that agency, rather than removing it.
Aqueous 14y ago
Free will and self-awareness are different, but we seem to confuse them a lot. We are a cognitive agent and can know many different kinds of facts. Our lack of free will is just another fact that we might become aware of.
- mpyne 14y ago
  > Our lack of free will is just another fact that we might become aware of. Sure, but even if it's a fact there's no use arguing about giving up the notion of free will because it's not under "our" control whether we will or won't, no matter how self-aware we might be. Self awareness is the easy part. I can run lm_sensors on my box at home to let the computer know about its own motherboard temperature and many other things, but it's still not a cognitive machine.
  - Aqueous 14y ago
    Right, I agree. It is not our decision when we collectively stop thinking we have free will. It might not happen at all. When I say "We ought to" I really only mean that facts point in one direction, and our beliefs point in another, and whenever they become aligned we'll be better off.

lukifer 14y ago

Counterpoint: It is not in your best interest to be an unsuccessful criminal. Many successful criminals are quite rational, whether they are drug lords or banking executives. I'm on board with the idea of a post-free-will justice system; I believe a health-centric approach would have much greater efficacy. However, I also don't think punitive pressures should be removed entirely; there are a lot more high-functioning sociopaths weaved into the human fabric than anyone wants to admit.

cobrausn 14y ago

The notion of free will isn't silly - 'giving up' on it is an absurd suggestion. It appears to serve a very useful purpose towards enabling us to not all be sociopaths, and is possibly fundamental to our view of self as rational agents in society. Without it, we immediately start 'misbehaving'. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?pagewa...

Aqueous 14y ago
You don't have to believe in free will to behave well towards others. You could simply have a rational belief that this mode of behavior leads to greater shared happiness, and that's enough of a justification for it.
- cobrausn 14y ago
  That becomes less and less likely the more we think we can get away with, or if we can rationalize that nobody really gets hurt (cheating on an exam, for example). 'Free Will', and the belief that, ultimately, decisions made by you are yours and you are responsible for them seems like something we evolved for a reason. Even if it is an illusion (likely but not proven), it's a damn useful one.

sp332 14y ago

It is not in your best interest to be a criminal. My grandfather worked at the state prison in New Hampshire. One of the inmates would break into a house and wait for the cops to show up so they'd take him back to prison. One time, a judge decreased his sentence for good behavior. He was pretty shaken up about it. We have to give up this silly notion of free will. The more we learn about the brain the more it turns out to be a fantasy. It might be difficult or impossible to change your behavior on a moment's notice, but with practice, you can change it. http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness.html http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_ha...

Crake 14y ago
This reminds me a little of the old man in The Shawshank Redemption who was unable to live outside of the prison he'd spent his whole life in. :( Do you know why the guy in your grandfather's story wanted to go back in?
- sp332 14y ago
  Well I never met him, but they said he was just there for the bed and food. He wasn't dumb or anything... in fact he cracked the security on the new electronic cell-door system with a ballpoint pen he lifted from a guard. He walked right down to the warden's office to tell him about it. (That's when the judge commuted his sentence, thinking he was doing the guy a favor.)
  - Crake 14y ago
    That's pretty impressive. Makes him sound a bit like Richard Feynman, actually.
Aqueous 14y ago
Changing your behavior is just your brain ( a program ) learning to reprogram itself. It's still a program.
- sp332 14y ago