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Honestly, this concept of building a product around such a sensitive issue like religion/spirituality is kind of "dumb". Wasn't it clear to them that such prob

Honestly, this concept of building a product around such a sensitive issue like religion/spirituality is kind of "dumb". Wasn't it clear to them that such problems will arise, sooner or later? People get offended if you brand your product with something "christian" or "islamic", so why should people not be offended by atheism? I dont get this whining. Keep religion to yourself, in all endeavors.

claudius 14y ago
Yes! Religion, as sexuality, should only be visible at home, and expecting a fair treatment of atheism in public is as silly as expecting to be allowed to hold your boyfriend’s hand in public or expecting to be allowed to discuss last Sunday’s sermon on the street.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- aurelianito 14y ago
  I do expect people to be allowed to hold hands in public. I also expect people to be able to discuss last Sunday's sermon on the street. I would not live in a place were any of those things is prohibited. Luckily, I live in a civilized place where both activities are permitted (Argentina :D).
  - GFischer 14y ago
    Well, having those activities permitted doesn't make Argentina civilized :P (tongue-in-cheek, I'm Uruguayan). I live in a proper Secular/nonreligious country :) (1) and we tolerate both as well. (1) we have separation of church and state, and only 4% of regular Christians, though 60% do believe in some sort of god http://countrystudies.us/uruguay/43.htm http://countrystudies.us/uruguay/43.htm Argentina does not have separation of Church and State (though they don't enforce it much, they even had a Muslim-raised president), and the United States has a state-mandated belief in God.
    - aurelianito 14y ago
      I really envy Uruguay regarding Church-state separation. I also really admire your president for not going to the Pope assumption.
UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
Are you seriously saying a private business has no right to conduct uhh private business with their customers because it might offend someone? Essentially you're just playing the classic victim blaming card. Someone was mean to you because of your religion/sexual preference/etc? You should have hidden it better, quit this whining! It is your fault for being different! Atheism also isn't a religion.
- mason240 14y ago
  Not believing in god is not a religion. Atheism itself though has grown into a full blown region. There is a point where your "not-golfing" becomes hobby, and it seems that atheism, at least for some, crossed that line long ago. I grew up in a very religious environment, but I have been an atheist for 10 years (I'm 30 now). I don't see much of a difference between "loud atheists" and "loud Christians." The intolerance is the same, the language is the same, and even the "I'm a better X than you" and "You're not a real X" are the same.
  - Jach 14y ago
    [Ed: I see you edited your original comment to be less general. To address that, I'd say you're seeing similarities that aren't characteristic of religions, but of humans rooting for their team. Your last sentence applies just as well to "loud fans".] This is as wrong as calling the technological singularity idea a "rapture of the nerds."[1] It's important to separate religious-minded-thinking, which is more generally irrational (or if you prefer a less general statement for the sake of argument, non-scientific) thinking, from an actual religion. Do atheists suffer from the same cognitive biases religious people do? Of course. Do some of them (I'd guess a minority) make errors in probabilistic reasoning by assigning p(a god exists|observations) = 0, actual 0, rather than the technical 0+epsilon that permits Bayesian updating in case a god ever decides to show itself? Sure. None of this makes atheism a religion. Where's the promise of salvation, but only for atheists? Where's the Holy Book? Where's the rituals and traditions? Are you called an "inactive atheist" if you don't go to chu^H^H^H weekly meetups and thus get shunned by your fellow atheists? Where's the singular code of morality? Where are the articles of faith? If you spend five minutes thinking about it, can you think of other ways atheism differs, categorically, from a religion like Mormonism? [1]http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/steven/?p=21 http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/steven/?p=21
rohansingh 14y ago
No. Perhaps it's a smart professional and business decision to keep certain opinions to myself, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that packages that say "ATHEIST" on them should be "lost" or "delayed" by the USPS. These guys manufacture fashion items that makes a statement. Clothing was recognized as a valid forum for freedom of expression by the US Supreme Court in Tinker v. Des Moines, all the way back in 1969. Or do you think that everyone who makes religious jewelry or political t-shirts should also just close up shop?
crazygringo 14y ago
People brand products around all sorts of things. And if there's a market for it, it's not "dumb" at all -- it's capitalism, and satisfying the market. And no, it should not be clear at all that the USPS would delay or lose packages like that. This is absolutely shocking (as long as it's true), and has no place in a global, modern economic infrastructure.
- DrinkWater 14y ago
  I know its not justifying the delay or loss of packages, but this is "the real life". My parents had to flee their country because of their belief. Don't tell me you are that idealistic and naive to belief that prejudices (of any kind) are something of the past. All i am saying is, if you want to make business, dont mix it with such a "theme". I have yet to see companies like Apple or Google or whoever release products like "iMuslim" or "Google Jew", its dumb and unprofessional. And if you happen to be that militant and want to release to biased product by all means, at least be that intelligent to not make it visible on the package. What would happen if you produce fucking dildos and you are so proud of it that you print out a hi-res picture of the product and put it on every package you send away. I wonder how many of these packages will arrive to their destination...
  - jeltz 14y ago
    > What would happen if you produce fucking dildos and you are so proud of it that you print out a hi-res picture of the product and put it on every package you send away. I should hope no such packages would be intentionally lost. If employees at USPS start having opinions about what packages should be delivered based on their looks then there is a serious problem. It is very unprofessional and a federal crime. The main reason for not having anything such packages is that I do not think many customers would wish to be seen carrying it.
  - claudius 14y ago
    > Don't tell me you are that idealistic and naive to belief that prejudices (of any kind) are something of the past. The idea is that such prejudices indeed should be a thing of the past and that this especially applies to the public postal service of a civilised country in the 21st century.
_ak 14y ago
USPS and its employees ought to act professionally, no matter whether the parcel is from someone who keeps religion to herself, or whether it's from some crazy religious Westboro-Baptist-style nutjob. If others commit crimes, then why should you limit your speech? This kind of attitude that you present is especially troublesome for a country that values freedom of speech so high.
jeltz 14y ago
While they must have expected some people to be offended I do not think they expected the postal service to intentionally lose packages. Intentionally losing packages is a crime and against the very idea of having a state run postal service. USPS employees should deliver packages belonging to any weird religious group or sect.
uptown 14y ago
"this concept of building a product around such a sensitive issue like religion/spirituality is kind of "dumb"." Do you not consider religion in-general to be a type of business? I certainly do. Why not associate yourself with what many believe to be the fastest-growing religious status in some parts of the world?
davidw 14y ago
> Keep religion to yourself, in all endeavors. Including posting stories to HN!

claudius 14y ago

Yes! Religion, as sexuality, should only be visible at home, and expecting a fair treatment of atheism in public is as silly as expecting to be allowed to hold your boyfriend’s hand in public or expecting to be allowed to discuss last Sunday’s sermon on the street.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
aurelianito 14y ago
I do expect people to be allowed to hold hands in public. I also expect people to be able to discuss last Sunday's sermon on the street. I would not live in a place were any of those things is prohibited. Luckily, I live in a civilized place where both activities are permitted (Argentina :D).
- GFischer 14y ago
  Well, having those activities permitted doesn't make Argentina civilized :P (tongue-in-cheek, I'm Uruguayan). I live in a proper Secular/nonreligious country :) (1) and we tolerate both as well. (1) we have separation of church and state, and only 4% of regular Christians, though 60% do believe in some sort of god http://countrystudies.us/uruguay/43.htm http://countrystudies.us/uruguay/43.htm Argentina does not have separation of Church and State (though they don't enforce it much, they even had a Muslim-raised president), and the United States has a state-mandated belief in God.
  - aurelianito 14y ago
    I really envy Uruguay regarding Church-state separation. I also really admire your president for not going to the Pope assumption.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago

Are you seriously saying a private business has no right to conduct uhh private business with their customers because it might offend someone? Essentially you're just playing the classic victim blaming card. Someone was mean to you because of your religion/sexual preference/etc? You should have hidden it better, quit this whining! It is your fault for being different! Atheism also isn't a religion.

mason240 14y ago
Not believing in god is not a religion. Atheism itself though has grown into a full blown region. There is a point where your "not-golfing" becomes hobby, and it seems that atheism, at least for some, crossed that line long ago. I grew up in a very religious environment, but I have been an atheist for 10 years (I'm 30 now). I don't see much of a difference between "loud atheists" and "loud Christians." The intolerance is the same, the language is the same, and even the "I'm a better X than you" and "You're not a real X" are the same.
- Jach 14y ago
  [Ed: I see you edited your original comment to be less general. To address that, I'd say you're seeing similarities that aren't characteristic of religions, but of humans rooting for their team. Your last sentence applies just as well to "loud fans".] This is as wrong as calling the technological singularity idea a "rapture of the nerds."[1] It's important to separate religious-minded-thinking, which is more generally irrational (or if you prefer a less general statement for the sake of argument, non-scientific) thinking, from an actual religion. Do atheists suffer from the same cognitive biases religious people do? Of course. Do some of them (I'd guess a minority) make errors in probabilistic reasoning by assigning p(a god exists|observations) = 0, actual 0, rather than the technical 0+epsilon that permits Bayesian updating in case a god ever decides to show itself? Sure. None of this makes atheism a religion. Where's the promise of salvation, but only for atheists? Where's the Holy Book? Where's the rituals and traditions? Are you called an "inactive atheist" if you don't go to chu^H^H^H weekly meetups and thus get shunned by your fellow atheists? Where's the singular code of morality? Where are the articles of faith? If you spend five minutes thinking about it, can you think of other ways atheism differs, categorically, from a religion like Mormonism? [1]http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/steven/?p=21 http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/steven/?p=21

rohansingh 14y ago

No. Perhaps it's a smart professional and business decision to keep certain opinions to myself, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that packages that say "ATHEIST" on them should be "lost" or "delayed" by the USPS. These guys manufacture fashion items that makes a statement. Clothing was recognized as a valid forum for freedom of expression by the US Supreme Court in Tinker v. Des Moines, all the way back in 1969. Or do you think that everyone who makes religious jewelry or political t-shirts should also just close up shop?

crazygringo 14y ago

People brand products around all sorts of things. And if there's a market for it, it's not "dumb" at all -- it's capitalism, and satisfying the market. And no, it should not be clear at all that the USPS would delay or lose packages like that. This is absolutely shocking (as long as it's true), and has no place in a global, modern economic infrastructure.

DrinkWater 14y ago
I know its not justifying the delay or loss of packages, but this is "the real life". My parents had to flee their country because of their belief. Don't tell me you are that idealistic and naive to belief that prejudices (of any kind) are something of the past. All i am saying is, if you want to make business, dont mix it with such a "theme". I have yet to see companies like Apple or Google or whoever release products like "iMuslim" or "Google Jew", its dumb and unprofessional. And if you happen to be that militant and want to release to biased product by all means, at least be that intelligent to not make it visible on the package. What would happen if you produce fucking dildos and you are so proud of it that you print out a hi-res picture of the product and put it on every package you send away. I wonder how many of these packages will arrive to their destination...
- jeltz 14y ago
  > What would happen if you produce fucking dildos and you are so proud of it that you print out a hi-res picture of the product and put it on every package you send away. I should hope no such packages would be intentionally lost. If employees at USPS start having opinions about what packages should be delivered based on their looks then there is a serious problem. It is very unprofessional and a federal crime. The main reason for not having anything such packages is that I do not think many customers would wish to be seen carrying it.
- claudius 14y ago
  > Don't tell me you are that idealistic and naive to belief that prejudices (of any kind) are something of the past. The idea is that such prejudices indeed should be a thing of the past and that this especially applies to the public postal service of a civilised country in the 21st century.

_ak 14y ago

USPS and its employees ought to act professionally, no matter whether the parcel is from someone who keeps religion to herself, or whether it's from some crazy religious Westboro-Baptist-style nutjob. If others commit crimes, then why should you limit your speech? This kind of attitude that you present is especially troublesome for a country that values freedom of speech so high.

jeltz 14y ago

While they must have expected some people to be offended I do not think they expected the postal service to intentionally lose packages. Intentionally losing packages is a crime and against the very idea of having a state run postal service. USPS employees should deliver packages belonging to any weird religious group or sect.

uptown 14y ago

"this concept of building a product around such a sensitive issue like religion/spirituality is kind of "dumb"." Do you not consider religion in-general to be a type of business? I certainly do. Why not associate yourself with what many believe to be the fastest-growing religious status in some parts of the world?

davidw 14y ago

> Keep religion to yourself, in all endeavors. Including posting stories to HN!