3 ms·

The article doesn't cite the particular statute that is believed to make this unlawful. I didn't have time to read the entire equality act, but based on the lin

by jiggy2011 14y ago

The article doesn't cite the particular statute that is believed to make this unlawful. I didn't have time to read the entire equality act, but based on the linked FAQ this was the closest I could find. "Indirect discrimination occurs where the employer applies a provision, criterion or practice - such as imposing a requirement for a minimum number of years' experience for a particular job - that places persons of the claimant's age group at a disadvantage, is to the claimant's disadvantage and is not a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. For example, it may be indirect discrimination against a young person to impose a requirement for employees to have held a driving licence for 10 years. The employer would be able to justify this only if it could show objectively that it was a genuine requirement of the job and not based on stereotypes of what makes a "reliable" and "safe" driver." So in other words it doesn't look like it is unlawful to ask for X years of experience as long as it is a "genuine requirement of the job". I don't think that would be too difficult to argue, if you are hiring somebody to be the lead developer of your critical java application, you don't want somebody who's only experience with Java is reading a Java 101 book over the weekend.

Peroni 14y ago
So in other words it doesn't look like it is unlawful to ask for X years of experience as long as it is a "genuine requirement of the job". That's correct. The issue is that it is incredibly difficult to justify legally and the UK employment law courts side primarily with the employee. There are plenty of examples of cases where potential employees have claimed indirect discrimination due to their age. I'll dig out some examples and update later.
hmottestad 14y ago
How about: - Ability to lead a group of experienced java developers Unless you can prove that X year is a lot better than X/2 or X/4 years and someone with X/2 years couldn't possibly do the job. And if you want to wean out those that only read Java 101. Simply state that you require "work experience with java", or "leadership experience with java developers" or "java certification".
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  As far as I can tell you would only have to show that you weren't basing your hiring on stereotypes. So in the example given, asking for someone who has held a driving license for 10 years to filter out younger drivers. That has a subtle difference to asking for X years of Java experience or whatever. Whether this is a good metric is a separate issue, but I am somewhat doubtful that this is illegal.
  - Peroni 14y ago
    More appropriate example: Developer A - Works for BigCorporate as a ruby dev, left university 5 years ago Developer B - Works for the same BigCorporate as a ruby dev, left university 4 years ago If BigCorporate decided to advertise a new ruby role that specified a minimum of 5 years experience, would Developer B be less capable of fulfilling the role? Technically Developer B is under-qualified as a direct result of their age.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      Not necessarily, much harder to prove a direct link to age. It's plausible that Developer B had more experience due to either not going to university and working as a ruby dev , or perhaps doing freelance ruby work whilst at university. It's also plausible that Developer A worked for a corporation as a Java/Python/Whatever dev for X years and would not qualify despite being older. So it doesn't necessarily discriminate based on a person's age, any more than requiring a university degree will generally discriminate against people under 21. In the driving license example, you must be 17 or older to hold a driving license in the UK. Therefor by requiring 10 years of holding one you are literally barring any person under 27 from the job.
  - hmottestad 14y ago
    Hmmm. From oxford dic: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing Now let us apply the definition. Particular type of person: experienced person oversimplified idea: 10 years is a minimum to be experienced False if you can find 1 person with 9 years who would also be considered an experienced person or if you can find 1 person with 11 years that would not be considered experienced.
jsmeaton 14y ago
> For example, it may be indirect discrimination against a young person to impose a requirement for employees to have held a driving licence for 10 years I understand this to be because it is legally only possible for a person to have obtained their license at the age of 18 (or 16 depending on where you're from). I don't think this would apply to "experience in LANGUAGE" at all as, technically, a young person could have that experience from a very young age. From the excerpt you've quoted, I don't think specifying years experience in a language would be against the law.

Peroni 14y ago

So in other words it doesn't look like it is unlawful to ask for X years of experience as long as it is a "genuine requirement of the job". That's correct. The issue is that it is incredibly difficult to justify legally and the UK employment law courts side primarily with the employee. There are plenty of examples of cases where potential employees have claimed indirect discrimination due to their age. I'll dig out some examples and update later.

hmottestad 14y ago

How about: - Ability to lead a group of experienced java developers Unless you can prove that X year is a lot better than X/2 or X/4 years and someone with X/2 years couldn't possibly do the job. And if you want to wean out those that only read Java 101. Simply state that you require "work experience with java", or "leadership experience with java developers" or "java certification".

jiggy2011 14y ago
As far as I can tell you would only have to show that you weren't basing your hiring on stereotypes. So in the example given, asking for someone who has held a driving license for 10 years to filter out younger drivers. That has a subtle difference to asking for X years of Java experience or whatever. Whether this is a good metric is a separate issue, but I am somewhat doubtful that this is illegal.
- Peroni 14y ago
  More appropriate example: Developer A - Works for BigCorporate as a ruby dev, left university 5 years ago Developer B - Works for the same BigCorporate as a ruby dev, left university 4 years ago If BigCorporate decided to advertise a new ruby role that specified a minimum of 5 years experience, would Developer B be less capable of fulfilling the role? Technically Developer B is under-qualified as a direct result of their age.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Not necessarily, much harder to prove a direct link to age. It's plausible that Developer B had more experience due to either not going to university and working as a ruby dev , or perhaps doing freelance ruby work whilst at university. It's also plausible that Developer A worked for a corporation as a Java/Python/Whatever dev for X years and would not qualify despite being older. So it doesn't necessarily discriminate based on a person's age, any more than requiring a university degree will generally discriminate against people under 21. In the driving license example, you must be 17 or older to hold a driving license in the UK. Therefor by requiring 10 years of holding one you are literally barring any person under 27 from the job.
- hmottestad 14y ago
  Hmmm. From oxford dic: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing Now let us apply the definition. Particular type of person: experienced person oversimplified idea: 10 years is a minimum to be experienced False if you can find 1 person with 9 years who would also be considered an experienced person or if you can find 1 person with 11 years that would not be considered experienced.

jsmeaton 14y ago

> For example, it may be indirect discrimination against a young person to impose a requirement for employees to have held a driving licence for 10 years I understand this to be because it is legally only possible for a person to have obtained their license at the age of 18 (or 16 depending on where you're from). I don't think this would apply to "experience in LANGUAGE" at all as, technically, a young person could have that experience from a very young age. From the excerpt you've quoted, I don't think specifying years experience in a language would be against the law.