4 ms·

Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. The economy

Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. The economy grows at a fair rate on average, yet Rand's aggressive-free-market capitalism basically promotes trying to grow the economy at 5000% until pop and everyone who doesn't have $500 million in the bank gets screwed over. I'm sorry, but when someone gets fired and then handed a $150 million check for losing their job, I think capitalism flat out sucks. All the CEO's who've been fired have lost their jobs for a reason: bad business. Yet they're rewarded with more money than an average person would make in a millennium. Yet if I lost my job, I'd be given nothing.

viggity 18y ago
I think you're sorely mistaken if you think that the economics of the US are anywhere near what Rand would consider to be Capitalism. Have you even read her books?
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  Very unfortunately, yes. I'm aware US economics aren't a carbon copy of what Rand wanted, because it simply doesn't work.
- Automatt-2 18y ago
  Enlightened self interest doesn't work on a scale necessary for a civilization to function. Every nation that has next to no government and every man is free to do with his life as he wishes is a giant shithole that teeters in and out of revolution. Want to see objectivism at work? Go visit Somalia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In those countries every man is free to pursue "... his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." Countries full of people who are "all noble heros free to pursue their dreams". Too bad their dreams all involve mass murder and slavery to pursue personal wealth and power. Hobbes was smarter than Rand. We have a Government to protect us from each other.
  - viggity 18y ago
    I don't think you'll find Rand objecting to a government that protects its people from physical aggression or coercion. The problem I have with most world governments (including my own), is that they try to (and fail at) protecting people from matters that the people are capable of handling themselves. In doing so, they rob people of their motivation and self satisfaction. I understand why people would think that Rand says "you should only care about your own life and happiness". But that is bullshit. It isn't considered bad to care about and care for other people (look at Dagny and Hank/John/Francisco). What Rand is railing against is being forced to care about another person (which is what the government does to the producers by threat of coercion). I'm a firm believer in Rand's theories, but that certainly doesn't stop me from donating my time and money to worthy causes. The important part is that my donations are made of my own FREE WILL and not forced at the barrel of a gun.
  - shrughes 18y ago
    Rand wasn't an anarchocapitalist.
Femur 18y ago
>Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. US economics and government policy do not at all resemble the ideas that Ayn Rand promoted. These policies resemble those of Europe much more. >I'm sorry, but when someone gets fired and then handed a $150 million check for losing their job, I think capitalism flat out sucks. That is indeed stupid. Companies that enter into contracts with individuals on those terms do deserve to fail
- radu_floricica 18y ago
  Well, high-paid CEOs are one of the things laissez-faire capitalism didn't really do well. Not the salary per se, but the very caustic obsession on short/medium term profit over long term. You can't really blame regulations here: the most important one was forcing companies to disclose CEO salaries 20 years ago, and we know how that turned out (they exploded because of competition). I'm very much in favor of Rand's ideas, but we must admit they do require a rather hard to find mix of idealism and dedication for all parties involved in order to work out. They're a good start, but far from a final solution.
  - gaius 18y ago
    You can't really blame regulations here Well you kinda sorta can: the board has a fiduciary reponsibility to the shareholders, which is good, but the regulations and penalties in place to enforce that mean that there is an obsession with quarterly figures - it actively discourages long-term planning. No-one dares make tough choices now that will depress the share price for 2 or more quarters, they'd get class-actioned into oblivion. A vast corporation that has been public for decades can weather it. A newly public company is in a very difficult position.
run4yourlives 18y ago
This comment doesn't deserve its negative rating. This is not reddit folks.
- davidw 18y ago
  Perhaps that's an indication that discussions of Ayn Rand are bound to end up like this and simply ought to be avoided on this site? :-)
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    I'll give you that.
- Darmani 18y ago
  All over the Internet (even a few other forums for the highly intelligent), there are people trying to blame the recession the "unfettered capitalism" we've apparently gained over the last decade. At HN, I expect people to know better, or, at least, to only have to be taught once.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    It's a valid enough point that a lack of regulation caused many of the current woes in the US, regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with it. Hell, I'll even give you supporting evidence: Canada. Not a single bad bank.
    - electromagnetic 18y ago
      Incidentally Bank of Montreal actually ran a profit on interest from bailing out the US' system. A considerable amount of money spent in the US bailout of banks actually ended up in Canada, Europe and Japan due to debts the US banks had already accumulated.
    - ams6110 18y ago
      Did Canada push its banks to give mortgages to people who could not afford them?

viggity 18y ago

I think you're sorely mistaken if you think that the economics of the US are anywhere near what Rand would consider to be Capitalism. Have you even read her books?

electromagnetic 18y ago
Very unfortunately, yes. I'm aware US economics aren't a carbon copy of what Rand wanted, because it simply doesn't work.
Automatt-2 18y ago
Enlightened self interest doesn't work on a scale necessary for a civilization to function. Every nation that has next to no government and every man is free to do with his life as he wishes is a giant shithole that teeters in and out of revolution. Want to see objectivism at work? Go visit Somalia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In those countries every man is free to pursue "... his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." Countries full of people who are "all noble heros free to pursue their dreams". Too bad their dreams all involve mass murder and slavery to pursue personal wealth and power. Hobbes was smarter than Rand. We have a Government to protect us from each other.
- viggity 18y ago
  I don't think you'll find Rand objecting to a government that protects its people from physical aggression or coercion. The problem I have with most world governments (including my own), is that they try to (and fail at) protecting people from matters that the people are capable of handling themselves. In doing so, they rob people of their motivation and self satisfaction. I understand why people would think that Rand says "you should only care about your own life and happiness". But that is bullshit. It isn't considered bad to care about and care for other people (look at Dagny and Hank/John/Francisco). What Rand is railing against is being forced to care about another person (which is what the government does to the producers by threat of coercion). I'm a firm believer in Rand's theories, but that certainly doesn't stop me from donating my time and money to worthy causes. The important part is that my donations are made of my own FREE WILL and not forced at the barrel of a gun.
- shrughes 18y ago
  Rand wasn't an anarchocapitalist.

Femur 18y ago

>Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. US economics and government policy do not at all resemble the ideas that Ayn Rand promoted. These policies resemble those of Europe much more. >I'm sorry, but when someone gets fired and then handed a $150 million check for losing their job, I think capitalism flat out sucks. That is indeed stupid. Companies that enter into contracts with individuals on those terms do deserve to fail

radu_floricica 18y ago
Well, high-paid CEOs are one of the things laissez-faire capitalism didn't really do well. Not the salary per se, but the very caustic obsession on short/medium term profit over long term. You can't really blame regulations here: the most important one was forcing companies to disclose CEO salaries 20 years ago, and we know how that turned out (they exploded because of competition). I'm very much in favor of Rand's ideas, but we must admit they do require a rather hard to find mix of idealism and dedication for all parties involved in order to work out. They're a good start, but far from a final solution.
- gaius 18y ago
  You can't really blame regulations here Well you kinda sorta can: the board has a fiduciary reponsibility to the shareholders, which is good, but the regulations and penalties in place to enforce that mean that there is an obsession with quarterly figures - it actively discourages long-term planning. No-one dares make tough choices now that will depress the share price for 2 or more quarters, they'd get class-actioned into oblivion. A vast corporation that has been public for decades can weather it. A newly public company is in a very difficult position.

run4yourlives 18y ago

This comment doesn't deserve its negative rating. This is not reddit folks.

davidw 18y ago
Perhaps that's an indication that discussions of Ayn Rand are bound to end up like this and simply ought to be avoided on this site? :-)
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  I'll give you that.
Darmani 18y ago
All over the Internet (even a few other forums for the highly intelligent), there are people trying to blame the recession the "unfettered capitalism" we've apparently gained over the last decade. At HN, I expect people to know better, or, at least, to only have to be taught once.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  It's a valid enough point that a lack of regulation caused many of the current woes in the US, regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with it. Hell, I'll even give you supporting evidence: Canada. Not a single bad bank.
  - electromagnetic 18y ago
    Incidentally Bank of Montreal actually ran a profit on interest from bailing out the US' system. A considerable amount of money spent in the US bailout of banks actually ended up in Canada, Europe and Japan due to debts the US banks had already accumulated.
  - ams6110 18y ago
    Did Canada push its banks to give mortgages to people who could not afford them?