6 ms·

Hang on, what? Refusing to advertise knives which are clearly intended to be used as weapons is 'evil' now is it?

by analog 14y ago

Anechoic 14y ago
You know we're talking about assisted-opening knives and not switchblades, right?
- wjy 14y ago
  You push a button and the blade snaps out in both cases. What's the real difference? The internal mechanisms differ, but the end result is the same.
jetti 14y ago
They aren't doing that though. They are refusing to advertise ads of a smaller company meanwhile allowing ads of large companies that sell the same (or similar) product that caused the smaller company to be banned.
daten 14y ago
As the OP explains, the knives in question are not illegal and not in violation of Google's policies. Additionally, other vendors selling the same items are not being banned. I think the "evil" part relates to discriminating against certain vendors instead of treating all vendors equally and consistently.
- corresation 14y ago
  As the OP explains, the knives in question are not illegal and not in violation of Google's policies They ARE in a clear violation of Google's policy which prohibits selling knives as weapons. They seem to have some confusion about the word of the ban, but as I linked elsewhere - http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/answer/176077?hl=en http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/answer/176077?hl=en This is not at all unclear. The examples of banned knives are not the exhaustive set. And for what it's worth, assisted opening knives are only legal by the most marginal of gray areas (that the "button" is laughably a part of the blade rather than the side handle).
  - Zak 14y ago
    I disagree; the policy is unclear. It mentions several categories of knives that are legally restricted in many jurisdictions. It then goes on to say that the promotion of swords and kitchen knives is allowed. Based on the OP's claims, it appears that utility pocket knives are allowed as long as they don't have assisted opening. It's also not clear from this page that Google has a problem with the use of adwords to sell products not banned from advertising in a store that also sells products Google refuses to advertise.
    - corresation 14y ago
      The policy is completely clear: Knives that could best be described as weapons are not allowed. People do buy knives as weapons, but it's pretty rare for people to buy swords as weapons (instead they're decorative), so that difference is completely explainable.
      - greyboy 14y ago
        I'm sure that a certain subset of people do buy knives as weapons, but I'd be surprised if it was even on the radar of total knife ownership reasons. Most buy knives for display or utility (dive, general utility, bolo/machete, etc.). Every one of them could be used to kill someone, just like a crowbar.
      - Zak 14y ago
        Knives that could best be described as weapons are not allowed. This is completely ambiguous. There are knives marketed as having been designed with input from various figures in the martial arts world or using terms like "tactical"; it's probably reasonably to say that those are designed, or at least marketed as weapons. Kitchen knives obviously aren't intended as weapons. Every other non-decorative knife on the market falls somewhere between those two points. Google has evidently decided that assisted opening == weapon, but does not say so on its policy page. This decision is not consistent with the marketing of most assisted opening knives, nor with the opinions of knife enthusiasts. Of course, there are probably very few objective criteria one could use to determine if a pocket-size folding knife is intended to be a weapon. I also reiterate that it is not clear from the page that selling an item banned from advertising (an assisted opening knife) on the same website as an item advertised on adwords that is allowed to be advertised on adwords (some other kind of knife that Google doesn't consider a weapon) is against the rules. Indeed, the main point of the complaint appears to be that larger adwords customers like Amazon and Walmart are doing exactly that.
navyrain 14y ago
Not sure if you're just trolling, but I'll bite. The government has regulations in place on dangerous weapons, which you are ostensibly free, through the democratic process, to change if they are not to your liking. Google has decided that legal/illegal is not a sufficient criteria, and made up their own rules about how you can use their service, but then only applied those rules to smaller clients. That is the evil part. This wouldn't feel so uncomfortable if google wasn't such a big player in the online advertising world.
- analog 14y ago
  I agree that it would be better if Google applied the same rules to other vendors selling similar knives. They are entirely free to decide how you can use their service, there's nothing evil about that. Edit: To clarify, I've used knives professionally (diving instructor) and recreationally (kite surfer), but I fail to see the non-weapon use for a knife that is small (and therefore concealable) and also opens quickly. Not to mention the window-smashing attachment. [1] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=UU4QEWxozEOWLj7LEqOGL9Cg&v=U19RNuxlJfg# http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&lis...!
  - wjy 14y ago
    It's also interesting that there is no effective difference between a switchblade and these "spring assisted" knives. Yes, the mechanism is different. But in both cases, you push a button, and the blade pops out rapidly. The very existence of these knives is clearly to circumvent existing laws regarding switchblades. This is entirely separate from the big-guys vs little-guys argument being made against Google.
    - betterunix 14y ago
      "The very existence of these knives is clearly to circumvent existing laws regarding switchblades." Those laws should be circumvented; they are as stupid as laws prohibiting Bowie knives.
  - mitchellhislop 14y ago
jlgreco 14y ago
> knives which are clearly intended to be used as weapons That seems a bit melodramatic. I have one that I keep around for general use around the home. Good for opening boxes, cutting twine/zipties, etc. It's very nice since I can put it in my pocket (unlike a paring knife) and can open it with one hand (unlike a pocket knife). It is a just plain practical design.
ianstallings 14y ago
Fold out knife is intended as a weapon? Don't tell the other fisherman. They may get scared.
- corresation 14y ago
  No one using a knife as a tool is going to buy an assisted opening knife. Aside from usage reliability considerations, having it trigger unintentionally (again, a tool they would handle constantly) would be a major concern. This is product sold only to teenage boys desperately seeking that high of invincibility.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    > No one using a knife as a tool is going to buy an assisted opening knife. Bullshit. I did. > having it trigger unintentionally There is no way in hell. Do you even know what assisted opening knifes are? They are not switchblades. > This is product sold only to teenage boys desperately seeking that high of invincibility. They are sold to anybody that wants to have a knife that is safe but can be opened with one hand. In other words, damn near everybody who has a use for a non-kitchen knife.
    - corresation 14y ago
      Bullshit. I did. I see in your other post you claimed that, then listing exactly the use that people resort to a box cutter for (cutting twine, opening boxes, etc, safely opened and closed with one hand, etc). Do you even know what assisted opening knifes are? They are not switchblades. Instead of having a button on the side of the knife that causes it to trigger open via spring actuation, it has a trigger lever on the blade back that causes it to trigger open via spring actuation, almost certainly being designed specifically to get around overly specific anti-switchblade laws. They are legal only by a trivial technicality of switchblade laws. You know there's a video directly in the linked blog posting. And anyone not lying to themselves can clearly see that the differences are laughable.
      - 14y ago
mitchellhislop 14y ago
> clearly intended to be used as weapons Knives are horrible, horrible weapons. These are clearly NOT intended to be used as weapons, as they are normal, everyday lock-back knives. Knives intended to be weapons, such as those modeled after the Krambit design, are fairly rare in public, especially among people who use knives (their shape and features make them much less useful). Your outrage is misplaced - we are not having a weapon talk. Google not allowing ads for something that is legal is bullshit. Them not allowing ads for some people, but allowing them for others, over the same product, is evil.
betterunix 14y ago
Knives are among the oldest and most versatile tools known to man. I have, on occasion, used my pocket knife as a gardening tool, screwdriver, box cutter, prying tool, wire stripper, wire cutter, torque wrench, and hammer. It is not the best tool for any of the above, but sometimes you just lack the time needed to go back to your garage and get your toolbox. Nothing about "assisted opening knives" makes them "clearly intended to be used as weapons." It is a convenience, just like my pocket knife conveniently locks open. Why should a tool not be convenient? Finally, the important distinction here is that Google is not refusing to advertise these knives, they are only refusing to allow this one, small company to advertise those knives. That is a key detail -- Google has no problem with the knives when Amazon is selling them.
- mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
  Actually it appears as though Google demanded that they stop selling those knives altogether, not just stop advertising them through AdWords.
- cdash 14y ago
  Its kind of different though isn't it. Amazon is a very big site and its is pretty unlikely that you would end up at a page that has these knives on it from any of amazons other ads. This is a highly focused website and it is very likely that you will end up on a page with these types of knifes from every single ad that they have.
xenophanes 14y ago
Refusing to advertise them for one company, but running the ads for another company, is an evil double standard. Whatever Google's knife rules are, they should be the same for small and big sellers.

Hang on, what? Refusing to advertise knives which are clearly intended to be used as weapons is 'evil' now is it?

by analog 14y ago

Hang on, what? Refusing to advertise knives which are clearly intended to be used as weapons is 'evil' now is it?

Anechoic 14y ago

You know we're talking about assisted-opening knives and not switchblades, right?

wjy 14y ago
You push a button and the blade snaps out in both cases. What's the real difference? The internal mechanisms differ, but the end result is the same.

jetti 14y ago

They aren't doing that though. They are refusing to advertise ads of a smaller company meanwhile allowing ads of large companies that sell the same (or similar) product that caused the smaller company to be banned.

daten 14y ago

As the OP explains, the knives in question are not illegal and not in violation of Google's policies. Additionally, other vendors selling the same items are not being banned. I think the "evil" part relates to discriminating against certain vendors instead of treating all vendors equally and consistently.

corresation 14y ago
As the OP explains, the knives in question are not illegal and not in violation of Google's policies They ARE in a clear violation of Google's policy which prohibits selling knives as weapons. They seem to have some confusion about the word of the ban, but as I linked elsewhere - http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/answer/176077?hl=en http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/answer/176077?hl=en This is not at all unclear. The examples of banned knives are not the exhaustive set. And for what it's worth, assisted opening knives are only legal by the most marginal of gray areas (that the "button" is laughably a part of the blade rather than the side handle).
- Zak 14y ago
  I disagree; the policy is unclear. It mentions several categories of knives that are legally restricted in many jurisdictions. It then goes on to say that the promotion of swords and kitchen knives is allowed. Based on the OP's claims, it appears that utility pocket knives are allowed as long as they don't have assisted opening. It's also not clear from this page that Google has a problem with the use of adwords to sell products not banned from advertising in a store that also sells products Google refuses to advertise.
  - corresation 14y ago
    The policy is completely clear: Knives that could best be described as weapons are not allowed. People do buy knives as weapons, but it's pretty rare for people to buy swords as weapons (instead they're decorative), so that difference is completely explainable.
    - greyboy 14y ago
      I'm sure that a certain subset of people do buy knives as weapons, but I'd be surprised if it was even on the radar of total knife ownership reasons. Most buy knives for display or utility (dive, general utility, bolo/machete, etc.). Every one of them could be used to kill someone, just like a crowbar.
    - Zak 14y ago
      Knives that could best be described as weapons are not allowed. This is completely ambiguous. There are knives marketed as having been designed with input from various figures in the martial arts world or using terms like "tactical"; it's probably reasonably to say that those are designed, or at least marketed as weapons. Kitchen knives obviously aren't intended as weapons. Every other non-decorative knife on the market falls somewhere between those two points. Google has evidently decided that assisted opening == weapon, but does not say so on its policy page. This decision is not consistent with the marketing of most assisted opening knives, nor with the opinions of knife enthusiasts. Of course, there are probably very few objective criteria one could use to determine if a pocket-size folding knife is intended to be a weapon. I also reiterate that it is not clear from the page that selling an item banned from advertising (an assisted opening knife) on the same website as an item advertised on adwords that is allowed to be advertised on adwords (some other kind of knife that Google doesn't consider a weapon) is against the rules. Indeed, the main point of the complaint appears to be that larger adwords customers like Amazon and Walmart are doing exactly that.

navyrain 14y ago

Not sure if you're just trolling, but I'll bite. The government has regulations in place on dangerous weapons, which you are ostensibly free, through the democratic process, to change if they are not to your liking. Google has decided that legal/illegal is not a sufficient criteria, and made up their own rules about how you can use their service, but then only applied those rules to smaller clients. That is the evil part. This wouldn't feel so uncomfortable if google wasn't such a big player in the online advertising world.

analog 14y ago
I agree that it would be better if Google applied the same rules to other vendors selling similar knives. They are entirely free to decide how you can use their service, there's nothing evil about that. Edit: To clarify, I've used knives professionally (diving instructor) and recreationally (kite surfer), but I fail to see the non-weapon use for a knife that is small (and therefore concealable) and also opens quickly. Not to mention the window-smashing attachment. [1] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=UU4QEWxozEOWLj7LEqOGL9Cg&v=U19RNuxlJfg# http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&lis...!
- wjy 14y ago
  It's also interesting that there is no effective difference between a switchblade and these "spring assisted" knives. Yes, the mechanism is different. But in both cases, you push a button, and the blade pops out rapidly. The very existence of these knives is clearly to circumvent existing laws regarding switchblades. This is entirely separate from the big-guys vs little-guys argument being made against Google.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    "The very existence of these knives is clearly to circumvent existing laws regarding switchblades." Those laws should be circumvented; they are as stupid as laws prohibiting Bowie knives.
- mitchellhislop 14y ago

jlgreco 14y ago

> knives which are clearly intended to be used as weapons That seems a bit melodramatic. I have one that I keep around for general use around the home. Good for opening boxes, cutting twine/zipties, etc. It's very nice since I can put it in my pocket (unlike a paring knife) and can open it with one hand (unlike a pocket knife). It is a just plain practical design.

ianstallings 14y ago

Fold out knife is intended as a weapon? Don't tell the other fisherman. They may get scared.

corresation 14y ago
No one using a knife as a tool is going to buy an assisted opening knife. Aside from usage reliability considerations, having it trigger unintentionally (again, a tool they would handle constantly) would be a major concern. This is product sold only to teenage boys desperately seeking that high of invincibility.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  > No one using a knife as a tool is going to buy an assisted opening knife. Bullshit. I did. > having it trigger unintentionally There is no way in hell. Do you even know what assisted opening knifes are? They are not switchblades. > This is product sold only to teenage boys desperately seeking that high of invincibility. They are sold to anybody that wants to have a knife that is safe but can be opened with one hand. In other words, damn near everybody who has a use for a non-kitchen knife.
  - corresation 14y ago
    Bullshit. I did. I see in your other post you claimed that, then listing exactly the use that people resort to a box cutter for (cutting twine, opening boxes, etc, safely opened and closed with one hand, etc). Do you even know what assisted opening knifes are? They are not switchblades. Instead of having a button on the side of the knife that causes it to trigger open via spring actuation, it has a trigger lever on the blade back that causes it to trigger open via spring actuation, almost certainly being designed specifically to get around overly specific anti-switchblade laws. They are legal only by a trivial technicality of switchblade laws. You know there's a video directly in the linked blog posting. And anyone not lying to themselves can clearly see that the differences are laughable.
    - 14y ago

mitchellhislop 14y ago

> clearly intended to be used as weapons Knives are horrible, horrible weapons. These are clearly NOT intended to be used as weapons, as they are normal, everyday lock-back knives. Knives intended to be weapons, such as those modeled after the Krambit design, are fairly rare in public, especially among people who use knives (their shape and features make them much less useful). Your outrage is misplaced - we are not having a weapon talk. Google not allowing ads for something that is legal is bullshit. Them not allowing ads for some people, but allowing them for others, over the same product, is evil.

betterunix 14y ago

Knives are among the oldest and most versatile tools known to man. I have, on occasion, used my pocket knife as a gardening tool, screwdriver, box cutter, prying tool, wire stripper, wire cutter, torque wrench, and hammer. It is not the best tool for any of the above, but sometimes you just lack the time needed to go back to your garage and get your toolbox. Nothing about "assisted opening knives" makes them "clearly intended to be used as weapons." It is a convenience, just like my pocket knife conveniently locks open. Why should a tool not be convenient? Finally, the important distinction here is that Google is not refusing to advertise these knives, they are only refusing to allow this one, small company to advertise those knives. That is a key detail -- Google has no problem with the knives when Amazon is selling them.

mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
Actually it appears as though Google demanded that they stop selling those knives altogether, not just stop advertising them through AdWords.
cdash 14y ago
Its kind of different though isn't it. Amazon is a very big site and its is pretty unlikely that you would end up at a page that has these knives on it from any of amazons other ads. This is a highly focused website and it is very likely that you will end up on a page with these types of knifes from every single ad that they have.

xenophanes 14y ago

Refusing to advertise them for one company, but running the ads for another company, is an evil double standard. Whatever Google's knife rules are, they should be the same for small and big sellers.