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How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction t

How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?

doktrin 14y ago
> "mysogynists tireless efforts to terrorize women in tech" Crazed hysterics are not necessary and accomplish nothing constructive. There are far too many ideologues on both sides of this discussion poisoning the well for the rest of us.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.
  - doktrin 14y ago
    Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      It's not Ancient Greek. The explicit usage is < 200 years ago. Doctors prescribing/performing masturbation to solve perceived rationality issues is.... Yeah. And it's only not explicit now because it was so acceptable that people don't immediately recall the gender.
monksy 14y ago
> We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There's nothing wrong with a geek-guy flirting with a geek-girl, its just how its done. Tech tends to avoid socialization which makes this issue worse. Most guys are more than willing to help someone else in need, especially a woman. EDIT: Moving the goal posts everytime is what keeps this a "problem." You can't keep claiming that tech is "unfriendly to women" when there have been women ceos, women in the work place, women-only tech organizations, and ridicious "women coding camps." But hey those are my 2c.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the planet like that. And a willingness to opine on the issues with zero understanding of the history or the lived experience of women in tech. If you're going to call yourself a geek, try learning a little about the topic before you speak.
  - monksy 14y ago
    There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're required to learn it." Tech [due to the typically socially isolating nature] is typically [I guess now you can say traditionally] discouraged to everyone. I never claimed that women were "deserving of the attention." I also never stated that the harassment is ok either. My opinion about where I perceive most of the harassment coming from is misjudged. I'm stating that there is a problem that they don't know how to communicate what they want effectively. It's impossible to learn social skills in a vacuum. It's even worse when the opposite gender expects those skills and they aren't there. It is ok for a guy to be interested in a girl that he may work with and express this, it is not ok for the guy to refuse to accept and keep persisting. You can't just go from being cold and strangers to knowing each other better without someone making a statement/action. Motivation is a big deal, I'll agree. But pushing younger girls into coding camps isn't the answer, thats not going to build motivation. If that model worked you'd see professional girlscouts.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Nobody has ever said that there is some sort of physical barrier, so I'm not sure why you need to argue against it. Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man. The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scouts, so that's another straw man. If you're going to argue against something, make sure that there's actually somebody on the other side.

How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?

doktrin 14y ago

> "mysogynists tireless efforts to terrorize women in tech" Crazed hysterics are not necessary and accomplish nothing constructive. There are far too many ideologues on both sides of this discussion poisoning the well for the rest of us.

steveklabnik 14y ago
You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.
- doktrin 14y ago
  Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    It's not Ancient Greek. The explicit usage is < 200 years ago. Doctors prescribing/performing masturbation to solve perceived rationality issues is.... Yeah. And it's only not explicit now because it was so acceptable that people don't immediately recall the gender.

monksy 14y ago

> We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There's nothing wrong with a geek-guy flirting with a geek-girl, its just how its done. Tech tends to avoid socialization which makes this issue worse. Most guys are more than willing to help someone else in need, especially a woman. EDIT: Moving the goal posts everytime is what keeps this a "problem." You can't keep claiming that tech is "unfriendly to women" when there have been women ceos, women in the work place, women-only tech organizations, and ridicious "women coding camps." But hey those are my 2c.

wpietri 14y ago
Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the planet like that. And a willingness to opine on the issues with zero understanding of the history or the lived experience of women in tech. If you're going to call yourself a geek, try learning a little about the topic before you speak.
- monksy 14y ago
  There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're required to learn it." Tech [due to the typically socially isolating nature] is typically [I guess now you can say traditionally] discouraged to everyone. I never claimed that women were "deserving of the attention." I also never stated that the harassment is ok either. My opinion about where I perceive most of the harassment coming from is misjudged. I'm stating that there is a problem that they don't know how to communicate what they want effectively. It's impossible to learn social skills in a vacuum. It's even worse when the opposite gender expects those skills and they aren't there. It is ok for a guy to be interested in a girl that he may work with and express this, it is not ok for the guy to refuse to accept and keep persisting. You can't just go from being cold and strangers to knowing each other better without someone making a statement/action. Motivation is a big deal, I'll agree. But pushing younger girls into coding camps isn't the answer, thats not going to build motivation. If that model worked you'd see professional girlscouts.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Nobody has ever said that there is some sort of physical barrier, so I'm not sure why you need to argue against it. Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man. The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scouts, so that's another straw man. If you're going to argue against something, make sure that there's actually somebody on the other side.