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> the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to t

> the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to terrorize and deter women from working in tech or, indeed, speaking publicly at all.

jessedhillon 14y ago
And this is why I contacted Hackbright Academy about being a mentor for their program. Anyone else who feels like this should consider doing the same.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  Thank you for letting me know about Hackbright Academy!
doktrin 14y ago
That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.
- king_jester 14y ago
  How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?
  - doktrin 14y ago
    > "mysogynists tireless efforts to terrorize women in tech" Crazed hysterics are not necessary and accomplish nothing constructive. There are far too many ideologues on both sides of this discussion poisoning the well for the rest of us.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.
      - doktrin 14y ago
        Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.
        steveklabnik 14y ago
        It's not Ancient Greek. The explicit usage is < 200 years ago. Doctors prescribing/performing masturbation to solve perceived rationality issues is.... Yeah. And it's only not explicit now because it was so acceptable that people don't immediately recall the gender.
  - monksy 14y ago
    > We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There's nothing wrong with a geek-guy flirting with a geek-girl, its just how its done. Tech tends to avoid socialization which makes this issue worse. Most guys are more than willing to help someone else in need, especially a woman. EDIT: Moving the goal posts everytime is what keeps this a "problem." You can't keep claiming that tech is "unfriendly to women" when there have been women ceos, women in the work place, women-only tech organizations, and ridicious "women coding camps." But hey those are my 2c.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the planet like that. And a willingness to opine on the issues with zero understanding of the history or the lived experience of women in tech. If you're going to call yourself a geek, try learning a little about the topic before you speak.
      - monksy 14y ago
        There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're required to learn it." Tech [due to the typically socially isolating nature] is typically [I guess now you can say traditionally] discouraged to everyone. I never claimed that women were "deserving of the attention." I also never stated that the harassment is ok either. My opinion about where I perceive most of the harassment coming from is misjudged. I'm stating that there is a problem that they don't know how to communicate what they want effectively. It's impossible to learn social skills in a vacuum. It's even worse when the opposite gender expects those skills and they aren't there. It is ok for a guy to be interested in a girl that he may work with and express this, it is not ok for the guy to refuse to accept and keep persisting. You can't just go from being cold and strangers to knowing each other better without someone making a statement/action. Motivation is a big deal, I'll agree. But pushing younger girls into coding camps isn't the answer, thats not going to build motivation. If that model worked you'd see professional girlscouts.
obstacle1 14y ago
Which misogynists? The ones who made threatening/abusive comments on Twitter? Or are you calling anyone who disagrees with Richards's handling of this situation a misogynist? If the former, don't worry. Those people don't represent the tech community, they are kids who hang out on imageboards and spread hate. To everyone. Including men. Do I need to provide some examples of /b/ tarring and feathering male victims on the internet? Or can we all agree that trolls attacking people online is nothing new? If the latter, then your logic is broken. And I'd argue that anyone who subscribes to said logic doesn't have the mental capacity to work in tech, so we don't have to worry about deterrence; they'd be filtered out anyway.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I'm going to keep worrying. I agree that those people don't represent the tech community. On the other hand, their behavior has caused legitimate fear among women in tech about speaking up. And it's not like the tech community rose up as one against the hatemongers: there was a lot of quiet and not-so-quiet support for how things turned out. There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did, with a lot less focus on anybody else, or on anything that led up to what she did. So I believe that Ryan McGreal is right in saying the misogynists had a victory. A partial one, though; good things have come out of it as well.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    I fail to see what "rising up" against an army of random alt accounts on Twitter would have accomplished. Those are people completely irrelevant to the scene, we don't work with them, they don't contribute to our culture, we're not responsible for their actions, we're not even affected by their actions (no, being tweeted at is not being affected). Not addressing them is the best course of action. Further I don't really see evidence of this having caused more fear among women in tech. In fact one of the more popular blog responses was written by a woman, speaking out against _both_ Adria Richards and the Twitter Idiots. Guess she forgot to retract into her shell for that one. >There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did Which is how it should have been. She handled the situation in a shockingly ridiculous way. _Shockingly_. And it turned out she had a history of doing such shockingly antagonistic things to anyone who wasn't black and/or a woman. People must know that being a member of a "protected class" isn't a license to be a complete asshole, and it isn't a license to abuse your professional standing to further your political cause. We need to foster a culture of civility all-around. This is what the "woman fired for calling out sexism" crew is missing. Maybe those who are still shilling the extremist "OMG SYSTEMIC MISOGYNY" line should head to pyvideo.org. A good number of the talks at the con were given by women. THESE women were the ones "speaking out" -- as part of the community, on merit, rather than as shameless ideologues. Two of the best talks I've seen from this year were given by women: Jessica McKellar's and Julia Grace's. There are plenty of women out there who, for whatever reason, don't feel excluded from tech and who frankly kick ass professionally. I wonder why this is? Less unsubstantiated political BS, more meritocracy. That is the road to solving the gender "problem" in tech. Not hiring "developer evangelists" who don't code/build/do anything and whose jobs are rife with potential for ideological abuse.

jessedhillon 14y ago

And this is why I contacted Hackbright Academy about being a mentor for their program. Anyone else who feels like this should consider doing the same.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago
Thank you for letting me know about Hackbright Academy!

doktrin 14y ago

That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.

king_jester 14y ago
How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?
- doktrin 14y ago
  > "mysogynists tireless efforts to terrorize women in tech" Crazed hysterics are not necessary and accomplish nothing constructive. There are far too many ideologues on both sides of this discussion poisoning the well for the rest of us.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.
    - doktrin 14y ago
      Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.
      - steveklabnik 14y ago
        It's not Ancient Greek. The explicit usage is < 200 years ago. Doctors prescribing/performing masturbation to solve perceived rationality issues is.... Yeah. And it's only not explicit now because it was so acceptable that people don't immediately recall the gender.
- monksy 14y ago
  > We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There's nothing wrong with a geek-guy flirting with a geek-girl, its just how its done. Tech tends to avoid socialization which makes this issue worse. Most guys are more than willing to help someone else in need, especially a woman. EDIT: Moving the goal posts everytime is what keeps this a "problem." You can't keep claiming that tech is "unfriendly to women" when there have been women ceos, women in the work place, women-only tech organizations, and ridicious "women coding camps." But hey those are my 2c.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the planet like that. And a willingness to opine on the issues with zero understanding of the history or the lived experience of women in tech. If you're going to call yourself a geek, try learning a little about the topic before you speak.
    - monksy 14y ago
      There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're required to learn it." Tech [due to the typically socially isolating nature] is typically [I guess now you can say traditionally] discouraged to everyone. I never claimed that women were "deserving of the attention." I also never stated that the harassment is ok either. My opinion about where I perceive most of the harassment coming from is misjudged. I'm stating that there is a problem that they don't know how to communicate what they want effectively. It's impossible to learn social skills in a vacuum. It's even worse when the opposite gender expects those skills and they aren't there. It is ok for a guy to be interested in a girl that he may work with and express this, it is not ok for the guy to refuse to accept and keep persisting. You can't just go from being cold and strangers to knowing each other better without someone making a statement/action. Motivation is a big deal, I'll agree. But pushing younger girls into coding camps isn't the answer, thats not going to build motivation. If that model worked you'd see professional girlscouts.

obstacle1 14y ago

Which misogynists? The ones who made threatening/abusive comments on Twitter? Or are you calling anyone who disagrees with Richards's handling of this situation a misogynist? If the former, don't worry. Those people don't represent the tech community, they are kids who hang out on imageboards and spread hate. To everyone. Including men. Do I need to provide some examples of /b/ tarring and feathering male victims on the internet? Or can we all agree that trolls attacking people online is nothing new? If the latter, then your logic is broken. And I'd argue that anyone who subscribes to said logic doesn't have the mental capacity to work in tech, so we don't have to worry about deterrence; they'd be filtered out anyway.

wpietri 14y ago
I'm going to keep worrying. I agree that those people don't represent the tech community. On the other hand, their behavior has caused legitimate fear among women in tech about speaking up. And it's not like the tech community rose up as one against the hatemongers: there was a lot of quiet and not-so-quiet support for how things turned out. There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did, with a lot less focus on anybody else, or on anything that led up to what she did. So I believe that Ryan McGreal is right in saying the misogynists had a victory. A partial one, though; good things have come out of it as well.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  I fail to see what "rising up" against an army of random alt accounts on Twitter would have accomplished. Those are people completely irrelevant to the scene, we don't work with them, they don't contribute to our culture, we're not responsible for their actions, we're not even affected by their actions (no, being tweeted at is not being affected). Not addressing them is the best course of action. Further I don't really see evidence of this having caused more fear among women in tech. In fact one of the more popular blog responses was written by a woman, speaking out against _both_ Adria Richards and the Twitter Idiots. Guess she forgot to retract into her shell for that one. >There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did Which is how it should have been. She handled the situation in a shockingly ridiculous way. _Shockingly_. And it turned out she had a history of doing such shockingly antagonistic things to anyone who wasn't black and/or a woman. People must know that being a member of a "protected class" isn't a license to be a complete asshole, and it isn't a license to abuse your professional standing to further your political cause. We need to foster a culture of civility all-around. This is what the "woman fired for calling out sexism" crew is missing. Maybe those who are still shilling the extremist "OMG SYSTEMIC MISOGYNY" line should head to pyvideo.org. A good number of the talks at the con were given by women. THESE women were the ones "speaking out" -- as part of the community, on merit, rather than as shameless ideologues. Two of the best talks I've seen from this year were given by women: Jessica McKellar's and Julia Grace's. There are plenty of women out there who, for whatever reason, don't feel excluded from tech and who frankly kick ass professionally. I wonder why this is? Less unsubstantiated political BS, more meritocracy. That is the road to solving the gender "problem" in tech. Not hiring "developer evangelists" who don't code/build/do anything and whose jobs are rife with potential for ideological abuse.