7 ms·

Let's pretend I'm at that shop with a large recruiting budget, and a $10k check is only an e-mail to accounting away. I also just watched a massive blow-up and

Let's pretend I'm at that shop with a large recruiting budget, and a $10k check is only an e-mail to accounting away. I also just watched a massive blow-up and bad press around Adria Richards, PyCon, and this issue in general. I'm naturally wary of my company being connected with or supporting these virulently negative forms of misogyny and feminism of which the entire donglegate episode seemed to spring. What would $10k would be funding, and the good press that would come of that? Reading http://www.pyladies.com/ http://www.pyladies.com/, they appear to put on study groups and other events, but their "Code of Conduct" is higher billed than an explanation of what PyLadies actually does with funding.

pekk 14y ago
Do you know anything about PyLadies? What led you to believe that PyLadies is about "virulent feminism" or is masterminding provocations?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- stefantalpalaru 14y ago
  Maybe he knows what Lynn Root did at last year's EuroPython[1][2] or how she complains about being only asked to talk about women issues[3] but when she got a spot in the lightning talk section she canceled it blaming the last day's "drama"[4]. [1] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/really/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/really/ [2] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/a-memorable-europython-for-the-better/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/a-memorable-europython-for-th... [3] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/my-un-talk-at-djangocon/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/my-un-talk-at-djangocon/ [4] https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/221217138688536577 https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/221217138688536577
  - pekk 14y ago
    I don't know Lynn Root, but I don't see anything here for any mature man to be upset about. If Lynn Root complains or does or doesn't give a lightning talk (on the basis of her feeling bad that day, or not having prepared or whatever) that might be some kind of faux pas but honestly, who gives a shit. People cancel lightning talks. It harms nobody. It certainly doesn't make everyone involved with PyLadies (e.g. Hynek Schlawack) into an Adria Richards feminist monster ruining your life. Tweet from your first link: "Sucked the marrow out of my osso bucco at dinner at #EuroPython. The waiter told me that I "will have very good orgasm." #Pyladies?" Please explain why it is not offensive for this guy to call upon PyLadies for an orgasm...
    - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
      >Please explain why it is not offensive for this guy to call upon PyLadies for an orgasm... I'll do better. I'll explain why being offended that someone mentioned the name of your organization in a context you don't approve of doesn't give you the right to publicly shame that person and get the conference organizers involved even if it was well outside their jurisdiction (he tweeted from a restaurant, after the conference). We're adults. It's as simple as that. If you get offended by "orgasm" being too close to "ladies" in some string you don't run to the teacher. And you don't spend your next days telling people how much it affected you just reading that string. Or how much you cried. Or indulge in discussions on your blog's comment section about how the environment is "rapey" just to delete all the comments when you don't feel like talking any more. No. We're adults and we should act like adults. Being offended is no excuse for bullying. No excuse for self-victimization. No excuse for abuse.
      - mnicole 14y ago
        After being told he could bring a woman to climax with the way he ate dinner, he used "#Pyladies?" to solicit sex to anyone following that hashtag. How is that not completely inappropriate?
        stefantalpalaru 14y ago
        >he used "#Pyladies?" to solicit sex to anyone following that hashtag How do you get to the sex soliciting part? Not that there's anything wrong with having sexual fantasies reading other people's tweets, but let's try to focus when talking about this, shall we?
      - pekk 14y ago
        As a man (and a throwback, not a feminist) I think we should be tougher than this, not cry for years when some young woman complains to a conference organizer about an overtly, over-the-line sexist remark aimed directly at the PyLadies organization. Now, the man in question was graceful enough to climb down and apologize and is widely respected and doing very well for himself today. That's correct. I suspect that the guy in question was probably a bit drunk or something, so in the end I think it is silly for anyone to still be offended about this incident. Nothing is being done to you. Nothing is being done to me. We don't need to be offended. We don't need to be resentful. We don't need to attack PyLadies. If you don't like them, then ignore them.
  - mnicole 14y ago
    ITT: We bust an organization's balls because of what someone not even in it did and then focus on one woman actually in the group to diminish the good intentions of the entire thing. Newsflash: you can't make judgement calls on entire groups because of a single person.
    - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
      >We bust an organization's balls I find this expression inappropriate because "balls". Oh, I kid, we're all adults here. Feel free to use any colorful expression you see fit.
mnicole 14y ago
"I just saw a person screw up, should I base my decision to fund an entire gender's disadvantage on a single person's irrationality?"
- pifflesnort 14y ago
  I don't see how one can reasonably equate funding of a one specific organization with the concerns of "an entire gender", without knowing more about what that organization does with those funds.
  - mnicole 14y ago
    If your assertion is that PyLadies would use these funds to encourage that type of behavior, that seems counter-intuitive to their purpose (plus on their CoC page, it outlines that photographic harassment is not allowed, among many others). If you are genuinely interested in what they'd do with the money, you should contact them instead of making the suggestion that women should stay where they are, alienating those of us already working here and furthering the logic that they shouldn't even bother. I don't have a problem with honesty for honesty's sake, but it doesn't change the fact that it's hurtful, if not the exact opposite thing to do right now. If we had an equal balance of men and women in this field, we'd have seen this whole thing go down differently.
    - pifflesnort 14y ago
      I didn't make the suggestion that 'women should stay where they are'. I asked what PyLadies does with raised funds.
      - mnicole 14y ago
        Ugh, my apologies. For some reason I confused you for the person who said that upthread.
  - taligent 14y ago
    What exactly are you implying ?
RyanMcGreal 14y ago
> the equally [sic] negative and virulent feminism You mean the negative and virulent feminists who were threatening to rape and decapitate someone they didn't like? Oh, right, no such thing happened. Please, please do not equate attempts to bring people's attention to inappropriate sexual language during conferences - whether you agree with them or not - to the massive outpouring of hatred, abuse, personal attacks and misogyny that accompanied this incident.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- smsm42 14y ago
  The story went a bit further than "attempts to bring people's attention". As it is pretty clear by now, Richards is a crusader, repeatedly blowing things out of proportion and raising big controversy out of most mundane things, and in this case it cost somebody his job. So while indeed she did nothing nothing comparable to death threats and other such filth, something more that "attempt to bring attention" did happen.
  - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
    That's not clear at all. I highly recommend reading this essay for a more careful look at what Richards has actually done by way of promoting gender equality rather than what her detractors (both civil and hateful) are saying about her: http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-the-surface-that-amanda-blum-article-on-adria-richards-is-not-what-it-seems/ http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-th... What is clear is that a huge number of people who thought it was totally unacceptable for Richards to identify inappropriate behaviour at a conference in the manner she did (or, according to some people, at all) have been silent or supportive about the massive and sustained outpouring of hatred, rage, vulgar insults and detailed threats of rape, bodily harm and murder that Richards has faced since then. Indeed, the GP comment actually equated what Richards did with what has since been done to her (the word "equally" has since been edited out), and an earlier posted reply by the same user (reply since deleted) suggested that since no one has actually raped or murdered anyone, there is no harm other than the firing. I really don't know what to say to someone who doesn't see the harm in a full-spectrum blizzard of abuse, hatred and threats - not only to the direct target but also to any other woman who is unsure how to respond when she sees or experiences something inappropriate. More perspectives: Courtney Stanton, A Woman Walks Into A Tech Conference http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a... Sarah Milstein, I Have a Few Things to Say About Adria http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2013/03/adria.html http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2013/03/adria.html Matt LeMay, On PyCon http://mattlemay.tumblr.com/post/46004653389/on-pycon http://mattlemay.tumblr.com/post/46004653389/on-pycon
granitepail 14y ago
As a group seeking to give women a safe and comfortable entry into tech, I can't imagine any scenario in which supporting PyLadies would add to the problem. It may bring more women into tech who are then the subject of such misogyny, which is a depressing thought but would hopefully continue to force the issue into the public eye. More women in tech is a win for everyone — including employers. To be swayed from helping a cause like this because of negative social repercussions signifies, to me, a desire to hop on the bandwagon as opposed to a true desire to get women in tech and fight to ensure they are seen as equals.

pekk 14y ago

Do you know anything about PyLadies? What led you to believe that PyLadies is about "virulent feminism" or is masterminding provocations?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
stefantalpalaru 14y ago
Maybe he knows what Lynn Root did at last year's EuroPython[1][2] or how she complains about being only asked to talk about women issues[3] but when she got a spot in the lightning talk section she canceled it blaming the last day's "drama"[4]. [1] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/really/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/really/ [2] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/a-memorable-europython-for-the-better/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/a-memorable-europython-for-th... [3] http://www.roguelynn.com/words/my-un-talk-at-djangocon/ http://www.roguelynn.com/words/my-un-talk-at-djangocon/ [4] https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/221217138688536577 https://twitter.com/roguelynn/status/221217138688536577
- pekk 14y ago
  I don't know Lynn Root, but I don't see anything here for any mature man to be upset about. If Lynn Root complains or does or doesn't give a lightning talk (on the basis of her feeling bad that day, or not having prepared or whatever) that might be some kind of faux pas but honestly, who gives a shit. People cancel lightning talks. It harms nobody. It certainly doesn't make everyone involved with PyLadies (e.g. Hynek Schlawack) into an Adria Richards feminist monster ruining your life. Tweet from your first link: "Sucked the marrow out of my osso bucco at dinner at #EuroPython. The waiter told me that I "will have very good orgasm." #Pyladies?" Please explain why it is not offensive for this guy to call upon PyLadies for an orgasm...
  - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
    >Please explain why it is not offensive for this guy to call upon PyLadies for an orgasm... I'll do better. I'll explain why being offended that someone mentioned the name of your organization in a context you don't approve of doesn't give you the right to publicly shame that person and get the conference organizers involved even if it was well outside their jurisdiction (he tweeted from a restaurant, after the conference). We're adults. It's as simple as that. If you get offended by "orgasm" being too close to "ladies" in some string you don't run to the teacher. And you don't spend your next days telling people how much it affected you just reading that string. Or how much you cried. Or indulge in discussions on your blog's comment section about how the environment is "rapey" just to delete all the comments when you don't feel like talking any more. No. We're adults and we should act like adults. Being offended is no excuse for bullying. No excuse for self-victimization. No excuse for abuse.
    - mnicole 14y ago
      After being told he could bring a woman to climax with the way he ate dinner, he used "#Pyladies?" to solicit sex to anyone following that hashtag. How is that not completely inappropriate?
      - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
        >he used "#Pyladies?" to solicit sex to anyone following that hashtag How do you get to the sex soliciting part? Not that there's anything wrong with having sexual fantasies reading other people's tweets, but let's try to focus when talking about this, shall we?
    - pekk 14y ago
      As a man (and a throwback, not a feminist) I think we should be tougher than this, not cry for years when some young woman complains to a conference organizer about an overtly, over-the-line sexist remark aimed directly at the PyLadies organization. Now, the man in question was graceful enough to climb down and apologize and is widely respected and doing very well for himself today. That's correct. I suspect that the guy in question was probably a bit drunk or something, so in the end I think it is silly for anyone to still be offended about this incident. Nothing is being done to you. Nothing is being done to me. We don't need to be offended. We don't need to be resentful. We don't need to attack PyLadies. If you don't like them, then ignore them.
- mnicole 14y ago
  ITT: We bust an organization's balls because of what someone not even in it did and then focus on one woman actually in the group to diminish the good intentions of the entire thing. Newsflash: you can't make judgement calls on entire groups because of a single person.
  - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
    >We bust an organization's balls I find this expression inappropriate because "balls". Oh, I kid, we're all adults here. Feel free to use any colorful expression you see fit.

mnicole 14y ago

"I just saw a person screw up, should I base my decision to fund an entire gender's disadvantage on a single person's irrationality?"

pifflesnort 14y ago
I don't see how one can reasonably equate funding of a one specific organization with the concerns of "an entire gender", without knowing more about what that organization does with those funds.
- mnicole 14y ago
  If your assertion is that PyLadies would use these funds to encourage that type of behavior, that seems counter-intuitive to their purpose (plus on their CoC page, it outlines that photographic harassment is not allowed, among many others). If you are genuinely interested in what they'd do with the money, you should contact them instead of making the suggestion that women should stay where they are, alienating those of us already working here and furthering the logic that they shouldn't even bother. I don't have a problem with honesty for honesty's sake, but it doesn't change the fact that it's hurtful, if not the exact opposite thing to do right now. If we had an equal balance of men and women in this field, we'd have seen this whole thing go down differently.
  - pifflesnort 14y ago
    I didn't make the suggestion that 'women should stay where they are'. I asked what PyLadies does with raised funds.
    - mnicole 14y ago
      Ugh, my apologies. For some reason I confused you for the person who said that upthread.
- taligent 14y ago
  What exactly are you implying ?

RyanMcGreal 14y ago

> the equally [sic] negative and virulent feminism You mean the negative and virulent feminists who were threatening to rape and decapitate someone they didn't like? Oh, right, no such thing happened. Please, please do not equate attempts to bring people's attention to inappropriate sexual language during conferences - whether you agree with them or not - to the massive outpouring of hatred, abuse, personal attacks and misogyny that accompanied this incident.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
smsm42 14y ago
The story went a bit further than "attempts to bring people's attention". As it is pretty clear by now, Richards is a crusader, repeatedly blowing things out of proportion and raising big controversy out of most mundane things, and in this case it cost somebody his job. So while indeed she did nothing nothing comparable to death threats and other such filth, something more that "attempt to bring attention" did happen.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  That's not clear at all. I highly recommend reading this essay for a more careful look at what Richards has actually done by way of promoting gender equality rather than what her detractors (both civil and hateful) are saying about her: http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-the-surface-that-amanda-blum-article-on-adria-richards-is-not-what-it-seems/ http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-th... What is clear is that a huge number of people who thought it was totally unacceptable for Richards to identify inappropriate behaviour at a conference in the manner she did (or, according to some people, at all) have been silent or supportive about the massive and sustained outpouring of hatred, rage, vulgar insults and detailed threats of rape, bodily harm and murder that Richards has faced since then. Indeed, the GP comment actually equated what Richards did with what has since been done to her (the word "equally" has since been edited out), and an earlier posted reply by the same user (reply since deleted) suggested that since no one has actually raped or murdered anyone, there is no harm other than the firing. I really don't know what to say to someone who doesn't see the harm in a full-spectrum blizzard of abuse, hatred and threats - not only to the direct target but also to any other woman who is unsure how to respond when she sees or experiences something inappropriate. More perspectives: Courtney Stanton, A Woman Walks Into A Tech Conference http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a... Sarah Milstein, I Have a Few Things to Say About Adria http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2013/03/adria.html http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2013/03/adria.html Matt LeMay, On PyCon http://mattlemay.tumblr.com/post/46004653389/on-pycon http://mattlemay.tumblr.com/post/46004653389/on-pycon

granitepail 14y ago

As a group seeking to give women a safe and comfortable entry into tech, I can't imagine any scenario in which supporting PyLadies would add to the problem. It may bring more women into tech who are then the subject of such misogyny, which is a depressing thought but would hopefully continue to force the issue into the public eye. More women in tech is a win for everyone — including employers. To be swayed from helping a cause like this because of negative social repercussions signifies, to me, a desire to hop on the bandwagon as opposed to a true desire to get women in tech and fight to ensure they are seen as equals.