7 ms·

In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't q

by SeanDav 14y ago

In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech" I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again. We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech. A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this. A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.

pekk 14y ago
It's hard to understand how you could think that Adria Richards is representative of all "women in tech". It's also hard to understand why you take Adria's incident as such a severe personal affront to yourself that you not only seem to want PyLadies to bite the dust, but "a part of [you] would be quite happy if [you] never saw a female in tech again." Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards. With respect, please consider that your reaction to this may be strongly irrational and that the things you are saying as a result (and the Adria-unrelated places you are choosing to start a fight) may be making matters even worse.
- JonnieCache 14y ago
  He didn't say it was a nice part of him. He was just being honest.
  - pekk 14y ago
    That is not an acceptable excuse for publicly saying that you wish women would not be in tech. It definitely doesn't make it any more rational to want to punish all women because you feel personally offended about the stupid actions of one person, which did not actually affect you in any way. If this pattern of feeling irrational resentments and using them to justify inflammatory public behavior is "just being honest" then Adria Richards was also "just being honest".
    - obviouslygreen 14y ago
      Then people just shouldn't say what's on their minds? That's not a very good attitude to have if you want to gain any understanding at all of the actual state of the industry in terms of who believes what. Suppressing opinions doesn't get rid of them, but it does make them almost impossible to change, because you now have no idea not only what people think, but who holds opinions you consider worth challenging.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - edmccard 14y ago
        >Then people just shouldn't say what's on their minds? Well, there's "shouldn't because someone said so" and "shouldn't because it's counterproductive." So maybe not? >Suppressing opinions doesn't get rid of them Refraining from expressing them certainly helps prevent them from spreading; there are a lot of opinions about women, blacks, etc. that I would have never formed on my own if I hadn't heard them all the time from my father while I was growing up. One of the things that helped me to grow out of those opinions was simply to not repeat them, _especially_ if I was around people who might have reinforced the opinions by agreeing with them or "defending my right to have them".
    - JonnieCache 14y ago
      I read it as a lament that an unhappy situation had provoked unhappy thoughts. The unhappiness of the thought serves as evidence of the unhappiness of the situation. But I agree that we should move on.
      - king_jester 14y ago
        So he is unhappy because he feels bad about women not wanting to be in tech? How exactly is that reassuring to women who know that this person takes a position that women do not belong in a space that should be open for everyone and that this person will probably end up enforcing that attitude (or at least others who share the same thinking and don't have an issue enforcing that attitude).
- SeanDav 14y ago
  I am trying not to get personal here, but you are guilty of just the sort of discussion that I find both embarrassing and narrow minded. By narrow minded I mean you are deliberately cherry picking individual points out of context and trying to imply something negative or even the opposite of the original post. For example you say: > " a part of you would be quite happy if you never saw a female in tech again. Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards." Yet you very conveniently skip over the part where I say "a bigger part of me would love to see more women in tech". You are also putting words in my mouth. Nowhere do I express an opinion about Adria Richards herself. You say other things as well but I am not going to defend myself any further or hijack this thread more than I already have.
  - pekk 14y ago
    You chose this. You chose to drag the Adria incident (unnamed) into an unrelated thread, perpetuating the toxic discussion (the one about Adria's incident) that you claim not to want to hear about. But you weren't responding to someone else here. You went there first. And you set the tone. You chose to open with 'I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech."' You chose to say that a part of you doesn't want to see women in tech at all. You didn't, for some reason, choose to reflect on whether this was rational or needed to be said publicly. You chose to say that you don't want to see articles "like this." Though this article isn't about anything offensive at all. You chose all of this. Neither your words, nor their inflammatory meaning, were made up by anyone else. Then you chose not to rethink or climb down from any of your inflammatory remarks. And you chose to respond to correction by escalating and getting personal. That attitude is the real problem that created the Adria mess. You are the same kind of person you are complaining about. And it has nothing necessarily to do with "women in tech." Please stop the oversensitive, resentful whining about others and take responsibility for your own choices.
    - gosu 14y ago
      I find this dramatic rhetoric off-putting. OP seemed honest and nuanced. There might be a valid point to be made that his feelings are toxic to society, in some subtle way, but I'll just echo the other people here in saying that he comes off as constructive while you appear to be saying things that sound clever to you.
- crusso 14y ago
  I think you took the worst possible approach to engaging in this discussion. You definitely took parts of the previous post out of context and twisted the meaning of what he claimed to feel. So rather than spring-boarding off the range of emotions that the poster felt and being productive, you made an attempt to destroy him by disingenuously twisting the spirit of his post. Not cool.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
ubercore 14y ago
I understand being conflicted about this, but it's a little bit selfish to side-track a conversation about something this unreservedly positive. Just remember not to paint too big a brush, and let things "donglegate" die rather than dictate the conversation going forward.
arh68 14y ago
> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. How long do you think that will be (for you)? I agree with your sentiment, and I'm now more skeptical of everyone's motives since PyCon. Are we talking weeks? months? before balance is restored?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Probably about as soon as I can open up a discussion about women in tech and not see the first comment mention her. shrug This story didn't have to be about her.
jisaacstone 14y ago
In an ideal world people would not even make a connection between the two. Pyladies is an educational group. Don't assume that because it is a group for women it is any more 'feminist' than any other group.
arjn 14y ago
I think you're taking it too personally. Step back and look at the big picture. PyCon was by all accounts a success and this incident a minor distraction that's gotten way too much attention and blown out of proportion.
gojomo 14y ago
You "would rather not even see articles like this" -- just because it reminds you of that other controversy, which this article had the good sense not to mention? As you note, the previous controversy had no real winners. Well, we all keep losing when that connection is reflexively made. Sure, it's natural to recall personally, but it doesn't need to be strengthened with constant mentions and fresh complaints. I suggest going with your first impulse, give the thought some time off, and skip such articles if they make you feel bad... rather than the second impulse, picking at the scab.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  > the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to terrorize and deter women from working in tech or, indeed, speaking publicly at all.
  - jessedhillon 14y ago
    And this is why I contacted Hackbright Academy about being a mentor for their program. Anyone else who feels like this should consider doing the same.
    - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
      Thank you for letting me know about Hackbright Academy!
  - doktrin 14y ago
    That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?
cpsales 14y ago
> "honest and open discussion." Never going to happen when people can profit off of the controversy: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th... See this link & people like Rev. Al Sharpton who make bank off of a group's union in victimhood.
king_jester 14y ago
> I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again. So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'd rather not see a woman in tech again? So if there is some new incident in the future involving a person of color, you'd rather not see people of color in tech again? Surely you can see that this attitude is really dismissive and while you may not feel so about pycon, in different circumstances this line of thinking is used to dismiss situations in which people suffer harshly, such as sexual assault or domestic violence. > We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech. I can't really say I agree, the people that really lost out the most are the two people who lost their jobs and have had the professional reputations damaged to varying degrees. I would also like to point out that you feel you'd rather not see women in tech again, but you don't seem to feel that you should be excluded from tech. If that is the case, is it true that you have suffered as a man as much as women have if the pycon incident makes you feel women do not belong? > A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this. This is unlikely, because despite how hyperbolic some people have been about Adria Richards, sexism in tech is a real issue that affects people, so there will continue to be articles and dialogue about it. > A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion. Saying there are "real issues" with sexism implies that you get to define what sexism is, but that would be problematic to say the least. Also, openness and honesty in the context sexism (not with the pycon incident, mind you) generally may expose people to physical violence and harassment, so dialog isn't the only tool in the kit worth using at times.
- SeanDav 14y ago
  Basically, you are pretty much wrong with all your points, at least that which you ascribe to my motives and thoughts. You are trying to twist my meaning into something different and then judge me on that - Classic straw man argument. My post is a personal opinion and an honest representation of how I feel at the moment. I feel deeply concerned with what happened, how it happened and potential consequences. It should be understood as a whole and not a series of logical points, taken separately and over analysed to try convey meaning and messages which simply aren't intended or even there. I could counter every one of your arguments, but not going to go into it on this forum, I have basically had my say. If you have a lot more to argue about, perhaps make a blog post and we can move the discussion there.
illuminate 14y ago
People often seek out excuses to confirm preexisting biases and prejudices. Sexism, racism, etc.

by SeanDav 14y ago

pekk 14y ago

It's hard to understand how you could think that Adria Richards is representative of all "women in tech". It's also hard to understand why you take Adria's incident as such a severe personal affront to yourself that you not only seem to want PyLadies to bite the dust, but "a part of [you] would be quite happy if [you] never saw a female in tech again." Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards. With respect, please consider that your reaction to this may be strongly irrational and that the things you are saying as a result (and the Adria-unrelated places you are choosing to start a fight) may be making matters even worse.

JonnieCache 14y ago
He didn't say it was a nice part of him. He was just being honest.
- pekk 14y ago
  That is not an acceptable excuse for publicly saying that you wish women would not be in tech. It definitely doesn't make it any more rational to want to punish all women because you feel personally offended about the stupid actions of one person, which did not actually affect you in any way. If this pattern of feeling irrational resentments and using them to justify inflammatory public behavior is "just being honest" then Adria Richards was also "just being honest".
  - obviouslygreen 14y ago
    Then people just shouldn't say what's on their minds? That's not a very good attitude to have if you want to gain any understanding at all of the actual state of the industry in terms of who believes what. Suppressing opinions doesn't get rid of them, but it does make them almost impossible to change, because you now have no idea not only what people think, but who holds opinions you consider worth challenging.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - edmccard 14y ago
      >Then people just shouldn't say what's on their minds? Well, there's "shouldn't because someone said so" and "shouldn't because it's counterproductive." So maybe not? >Suppressing opinions doesn't get rid of them Refraining from expressing them certainly helps prevent them from spreading; there are a lot of opinions about women, blacks, etc. that I would have never formed on my own if I hadn't heard them all the time from my father while I was growing up. One of the things that helped me to grow out of those opinions was simply to not repeat them, _especially_ if I was around people who might have reinforced the opinions by agreeing with them or "defending my right to have them".
  - JonnieCache 14y ago
    I read it as a lament that an unhappy situation had provoked unhappy thoughts. The unhappiness of the thought serves as evidence of the unhappiness of the situation. But I agree that we should move on.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      So he is unhappy because he feels bad about women not wanting to be in tech? How exactly is that reassuring to women who know that this person takes a position that women do not belong in a space that should be open for everyone and that this person will probably end up enforcing that attitude (or at least others who share the same thinking and don't have an issue enforcing that attitude).
SeanDav 14y ago
I am trying not to get personal here, but you are guilty of just the sort of discussion that I find both embarrassing and narrow minded. By narrow minded I mean you are deliberately cherry picking individual points out of context and trying to imply something negative or even the opposite of the original post. For example you say: > " a part of you would be quite happy if you never saw a female in tech again. Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards." Yet you very conveniently skip over the part where I say "a bigger part of me would love to see more women in tech". You are also putting words in my mouth. Nowhere do I express an opinion about Adria Richards herself. You say other things as well but I am not going to defend myself any further or hijack this thread more than I already have.
- pekk 14y ago
  You chose this. You chose to drag the Adria incident (unnamed) into an unrelated thread, perpetuating the toxic discussion (the one about Adria's incident) that you claim not to want to hear about. But you weren't responding to someone else here. You went there first. And you set the tone. You chose to open with 'I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech."' You chose to say that a part of you doesn't want to see women in tech at all. You didn't, for some reason, choose to reflect on whether this was rational or needed to be said publicly. You chose to say that you don't want to see articles "like this." Though this article isn't about anything offensive at all. You chose all of this. Neither your words, nor their inflammatory meaning, were made up by anyone else. Then you chose not to rethink or climb down from any of your inflammatory remarks. And you chose to respond to correction by escalating and getting personal. That attitude is the real problem that created the Adria mess. You are the same kind of person you are complaining about. And it has nothing necessarily to do with "women in tech." Please stop the oversensitive, resentful whining about others and take responsibility for your own choices.
  - gosu 14y ago
    I find this dramatic rhetoric off-putting. OP seemed honest and nuanced. There might be a valid point to be made that his feelings are toxic to society, in some subtle way, but I'll just echo the other people here in saying that he comes off as constructive while you appear to be saying things that sound clever to you.
crusso 14y ago
I think you took the worst possible approach to engaging in this discussion. You definitely took parts of the previous post out of context and twisted the meaning of what he claimed to feel. So rather than spring-boarding off the range of emotions that the poster felt and being productive, you made an attempt to destroy him by disingenuously twisting the spirit of his post. Not cool.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

ubercore 14y ago

I understand being conflicted about this, but it's a little bit selfish to side-track a conversation about something this unreservedly positive. Just remember not to paint too big a brush, and let things "donglegate" die rather than dictate the conversation going forward.

arh68 14y ago

> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. How long do you think that will be (for you)? I agree with your sentiment, and I'm now more skeptical of everyone's motives since PyCon. Are we talking weeks? months? before balance is restored?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jlgreco 14y ago
Probably about as soon as I can open up a discussion about women in tech and not see the first comment mention her. shrug This story didn't have to be about her.

jisaacstone 14y ago

In an ideal world people would not even make a connection between the two. Pyladies is an educational group. Don't assume that because it is a group for women it is any more 'feminist' than any other group.

arjn 14y ago

I think you're taking it too personally. Step back and look at the big picture. PyCon was by all accounts a success and this incident a minor distraction that's gotten way too much attention and blown out of proportion.

gojomo 14y ago

You "would rather not even see articles like this" -- just because it reminds you of that other controversy, which this article had the good sense not to mention? As you note, the previous controversy had no real winners. Well, we all keep losing when that connection is reflexively made. Sure, it's natural to recall personally, but it doesn't need to be strengthened with constant mentions and fresh complaints. I suggest going with your first impulse, give the thought some time off, and skip such articles if they make you feel bad... rather than the second impulse, picking at the scab.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago
> the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to terrorize and deter women from working in tech or, indeed, speaking publicly at all.
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  And this is why I contacted Hackbright Academy about being a mentor for their program. Anyone else who feels like this should consider doing the same.
  - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
    Thank you for letting me know about Hackbright Academy!
- doktrin 14y ago
  That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?

cpsales 14y ago

> "honest and open discussion." Never going to happen when people can profit off of the controversy: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th... See this link & people like Rev. Al Sharpton who make bank off of a group's union in victimhood.

king_jester 14y ago

> I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again. So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'd rather not see a woman in tech again? So if there is some new incident in the future involving a person of color, you'd rather not see people of color in tech again? Surely you can see that this attitude is really dismissive and while you may not feel so about pycon, in different circumstances this line of thinking is used to dismiss situations in which people suffer harshly, such as sexual assault or domestic violence. > We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech. I can't really say I agree, the people that really lost out the most are the two people who lost their jobs and have had the professional reputations damaged to varying degrees. I would also like to point out that you feel you'd rather not see women in tech again, but you don't seem to feel that you should be excluded from tech. If that is the case, is it true that you have suffered as a man as much as women have if the pycon incident makes you feel women do not belong? > A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this. This is unlikely, because despite how hyperbolic some people have been about Adria Richards, sexism in tech is a real issue that affects people, so there will continue to be articles and dialogue about it. > A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion. Saying there are "real issues" with sexism implies that you get to define what sexism is, but that would be problematic to say the least. Also, openness and honesty in the context sexism (not with the pycon incident, mind you) generally may expose people to physical violence and harassment, so dialog isn't the only tool in the kit worth using at times.

SeanDav 14y ago
Basically, you are pretty much wrong with all your points, at least that which you ascribe to my motives and thoughts. You are trying to twist my meaning into something different and then judge me on that - Classic straw man argument. My post is a personal opinion and an honest representation of how I feel at the moment. I feel deeply concerned with what happened, how it happened and potential consequences. It should be understood as a whole and not a series of logical points, taken separately and over analysed to try convey meaning and messages which simply aren't intended or even there. I could counter every one of your arguments, but not going to go into it on this forum, I have basically had my say. If you have a lot more to argue about, perhaps make a blog post and we can move the discussion there.

illuminate 14y ago

People often seek out excuses to confirm preexisting biases and prejudices. Sexism, racism, etc.