4 ms·

Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can

Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" It doesn't matter if you think she's over-reacting, or thin skinned, or any other judgement you've made of her after reading her post. Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. If you think she's just being "moody", there are plenty of guys who see and hate this behavior of our industry and would love for the environment t to improve. As someone who spent 8 years as a car salesman(a 95%+ male industry), the vitriol towards and objectification of women in tech is just about as bad. It's time to wake up.

smackmybishop 14y ago
I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.
- ceol 14y ago
  Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.
  - smackmybishop 14y ago
    Ah, someone "commented on her makeup" or "patted her on the head"? I've been asked to take notes in meetings from time to time, and I don't write blog posts about it...
    - rooshdi 14y ago
      Stop trolling.
    - ceol 14y ago
      I was about to quote the other parts of her post, but then I realized it's not worth the effort. If you don't acknowledge them after having presumably read the post, you're not going to do so when I quote them, and you'll probably throw some half-assed reasons as to why they don't meet the specific criteria of "vitriol" you had laid out in your head. Instead, I'd like to use your post as another piece of evidence of the problems women face in the tech and programming communities. Hopefully those who do have a chance of understanding will look at your comment and go, "Wow, I can't believe some guy would say such a stupid thing. Perhaps there is a problem..."
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  Were you not around last week or something?
  - dictum 14y ago
    Steve, I'm sorry to mention this, but a few weeks ago you mocked someone's repo on Twitter. Incidentally, that person happened to be a woman. The personal attacks on Adria (death threats and all) are disgusting, but they're not the kind of thing that keeps women away from tech. It's the small discouragements, like the one you did when you mocked a stranger's repo (probably without knowing her gender) that keep women from thriving in tech. I'm really sorry for the ad hominem/tu quoque, but if you want to make tech a better field for women, you have to make some adjustments that can make it better for non-heterosexual people, people with disabilities, foreigners, etc... It's not enough to be open for women in tech: we should strive to be friendly to people who don't have the same level of proficiency, people with different tastes and opinions, and strangers. It's not a kid with a DDoS tool and a fake Twitter account who makes a women avoid a career in STEM. It's a well-meaning technologist accidentally being an asshole (http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node). Actions trump words.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      I'm not referring to the men, I'm referring to the reaction to her. I had to report accounts to Twitter for sending her pictures of decapitated women, and posting her home address. As for that other situation, as you say, actions speak louder than words. I personally feel that the pluses are bigger than the minuses here, but this thread isn't about me.
    - smackmybishop 14y ago
      So, mocking someone without knowing their gender keeps women (and not men) out of tech. How does that make sense? I'm honestly curious.
      - tiredofcareer 14y ago
- vacri 14y ago
  Were you away from HN during the "PyCon Event"? It was only a couple of days ago, and was a startlingly clear example.
  - GhotiFish 14y ago
    Was that vitriol against women? Or against a person?
    - vacri 14y ago
      Both.
  - smackmybishop 14y ago
    I was here. "I'd fork his repo," right? That was "vitriol against women"?
    - vacri 14y ago
      Come on mate, don't come the raw prawn with me.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      No, the vitriol would be calling her a cunt, threatening rape, doxing her, threatening death, implying that she's hysterical, cheering her firing, etc, etc. I say that because the nice interpretation of what you say i that you genuinely missed most of the story. But it's hard not to think you're just being an ass.
- shadowspar 14y ago
  http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents Fill your boots.
GhotiFish 14y ago
but that's what I always do! Whenever I read these problems, this is what I think! The only problem is, every time I think "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" I can not think of anything. There is nothing I could do! Absolutely nothing. I wrack my brain every time, but I can't do a damn thing. How about this: I'll gather every single programmer in my office. I'll stand there infront of 30 software engineers and I'll tell them: "The reason women arn't successful in technology is because you are implicitly denying them the chance! You need to re-evaluate on what criteria you are using to judge someones actions or opinions." "But Fish, there are NO female programmers in this office. All 30 of us are male. We have no one to discriminate against." "uhh... and ITS YOUR FAULT!" That's why these posts are frustrating. I've met three women in my life who actually typed code into a computer. 2 sucked at it, 1 was pretty good but didn't enjoy doing it (hey for the record that's better than the males, who come in 80% bad to 20% good). You know what's weird? Regarding the skill of that one good girl programmer? No one doubted it. No one patronized her, everyone knew she was good. I can't possibly wake any more up! I'm awake! I swear!
- psycr 14y ago
  This is exactly how I feel, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not perfect - I've probably alienated people before - but I want to consciously avoid doing so, and to try to make a difference. What to do though? Just listen?
- wpietri 14y ago
  Well, one thing you could do is attend conferences and decide that you personally are the one responsible for upholding the code of conduct. I think it's interesting that in the Adria Richards fiasco, almost everybody focused on the reaction of one person who heard the off-color jokes. But there were probably 5 other people who heard them as well. Adria reacted because she had been sensitized to that sort of thing. But any one of those other guys could have said, "Dude, that's not cool. You're at a conference." And that would have been the end of it, because Adria wouldn't have felt like the burden of enforcement fell on her. Another thing you could do: carefully examine your recruiting pipeline. 30 male engineers in one company is statistically odd. Last I was recruiting, I was very careful to put the word out in ways that were likely to increase the number of female applicants. We also made sure we had decent benefits and sane working hours. Eventually we also moved our office to a better neighborhood, partly because some women expressed safety concerns there. Or you could do something like Etsy did: http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-more-female-engineers/ http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-m... Or you could start volunteering at events designed to get more women into tech. Or just supporting them with cash. I give regularly to the Ada Initiative and Black Girls Code.
lallysingh 14y ago
Exactly what I was thinking. It's treating half of the human population: mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, as an inferior class of people. It's ridiculous and absurd. It's also something that's both new and western. Programming, as an occupation, used to have a much healthier mix of genders. Looking at foreign-born computer scientists at my old grad school and at work, the ratio distortion is pretty unique to here. I donno what the cause is, but it is cultural. And we don't have enough of a culture for it to be anything more substantial than the accumulation of "1000 papercuts." I think it's happening out of a combination of childishness and laziness. Most of us who repeat the same little phrases like "so easy my mom can do it" over and over just do it because we're too lazy to come up with a metaphor of our own. Here's an example replacement: "So easy a congressman can do it." (I don't think I have to explain the childishness part). So, as colleges have higher proportions of women in the US, are we going to lose domestic undergraduate CS programs due to a lack of interest?
s_baby 14y ago
>Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. The problem is the agendas that ride on the coat-tails of such dialogues. If we could separate the baby from the bath water that'd be great but a culture moulded by P.C zealots does not make the culture a better place.

smackmybishop 14y ago

I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.

ceol 14y ago
Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.
- smackmybishop 14y ago
  Ah, someone "commented on her makeup" or "patted her on the head"? I've been asked to take notes in meetings from time to time, and I don't write blog posts about it...
  - rooshdi 14y ago
    Stop trolling.
  - ceol 14y ago
    I was about to quote the other parts of her post, but then I realized it's not worth the effort. If you don't acknowledge them after having presumably read the post, you're not going to do so when I quote them, and you'll probably throw some half-assed reasons as to why they don't meet the specific criteria of "vitriol" you had laid out in your head. Instead, I'd like to use your post as another piece of evidence of the problems women face in the tech and programming communities. Hopefully those who do have a chance of understanding will look at your comment and go, "Wow, I can't believe some guy would say such a stupid thing. Perhaps there is a problem..."
steveklabnik 14y ago
Were you not around last week or something?
- dictum 14y ago
  Steve, I'm sorry to mention this, but a few weeks ago you mocked someone's repo on Twitter. Incidentally, that person happened to be a woman. The personal attacks on Adria (death threats and all) are disgusting, but they're not the kind of thing that keeps women away from tech. It's the small discouragements, like the one you did when you mocked a stranger's repo (probably without knowing her gender) that keep women from thriving in tech. I'm really sorry for the ad hominem/tu quoque, but if you want to make tech a better field for women, you have to make some adjustments that can make it better for non-heterosexual people, people with disabilities, foreigners, etc... It's not enough to be open for women in tech: we should strive to be friendly to people who don't have the same level of proficiency, people with different tastes and opinions, and strangers. It's not a kid with a DDoS tool and a fake Twitter account who makes a women avoid a career in STEM. It's a well-meaning technologist accidentally being an asshole (http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node). Actions trump words.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    I'm not referring to the men, I'm referring to the reaction to her. I had to report accounts to Twitter for sending her pictures of decapitated women, and posting her home address. As for that other situation, as you say, actions speak louder than words. I personally feel that the pluses are bigger than the minuses here, but this thread isn't about me.
  - smackmybishop 14y ago
    So, mocking someone without knowing their gender keeps women (and not men) out of tech. How does that make sense? I'm honestly curious.
    - tiredofcareer 14y ago
vacri 14y ago
Were you away from HN during the "PyCon Event"? It was only a couple of days ago, and was a startlingly clear example.
- GhotiFish 14y ago
  Was that vitriol against women? Or against a person?
  - vacri 14y ago
    Both.
- smackmybishop 14y ago
  I was here. "I'd fork his repo," right? That was "vitriol against women"?
  - vacri 14y ago
    Come on mate, don't come the raw prawn with me.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    No, the vitriol would be calling her a cunt, threatening rape, doxing her, threatening death, implying that she's hysterical, cheering her firing, etc, etc. I say that because the nice interpretation of what you say i that you genuinely missed most of the story. But it's hard not to think you're just being an ass.
shadowspar 14y ago
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents Fill your boots.

GhotiFish 14y ago

but that's what I always do! Whenever I read these problems, this is what I think! The only problem is, every time I think "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" I can not think of anything. There is nothing I could do! Absolutely nothing. I wrack my brain every time, but I can't do a damn thing. How about this: I'll gather every single programmer in my office. I'll stand there infront of 30 software engineers and I'll tell them: "The reason women arn't successful in technology is because you are implicitly denying them the chance! You need to re-evaluate on what criteria you are using to judge someones actions or opinions." "But Fish, there are NO female programmers in this office. All 30 of us are male. We have no one to discriminate against." "uhh... and ITS YOUR FAULT!" That's why these posts are frustrating. I've met three women in my life who actually typed code into a computer. 2 sucked at it, 1 was pretty good but didn't enjoy doing it (hey for the record that's better than the males, who come in 80% bad to 20% good). You know what's weird? Regarding the skill of that one good girl programmer? No one doubted it. No one patronized her, everyone knew she was good. I can't possibly wake any more up! I'm awake! I swear!

psycr 14y ago
This is exactly how I feel, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not perfect - I've probably alienated people before - but I want to consciously avoid doing so, and to try to make a difference. What to do though? Just listen?
wpietri 14y ago
Well, one thing you could do is attend conferences and decide that you personally are the one responsible for upholding the code of conduct. I think it's interesting that in the Adria Richards fiasco, almost everybody focused on the reaction of one person who heard the off-color jokes. But there were probably 5 other people who heard them as well. Adria reacted because she had been sensitized to that sort of thing. But any one of those other guys could have said, "Dude, that's not cool. You're at a conference." And that would have been the end of it, because Adria wouldn't have felt like the burden of enforcement fell on her. Another thing you could do: carefully examine your recruiting pipeline. 30 male engineers in one company is statistically odd. Last I was recruiting, I was very careful to put the word out in ways that were likely to increase the number of female applicants. We also made sure we had decent benefits and sane working hours. Eventually we also moved our office to a better neighborhood, partly because some women expressed safety concerns there. Or you could do something like Etsy did: http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-more-female-engineers/ http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-m... Or you could start volunteering at events designed to get more women into tech. Or just supporting them with cash. I give regularly to the Ada Initiative and Black Girls Code.

lallysingh 14y ago

Exactly what I was thinking. It's treating half of the human population: mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, as an inferior class of people. It's ridiculous and absurd. It's also something that's both new and western. Programming, as an occupation, used to have a much healthier mix of genders. Looking at foreign-born computer scientists at my old grad school and at work, the ratio distortion is pretty unique to here. I donno what the cause is, but it is cultural. And we don't have enough of a culture for it to be anything more substantial than the accumulation of "1000 papercuts." I think it's happening out of a combination of childishness and laziness. Most of us who repeat the same little phrases like "so easy my mom can do it" over and over just do it because we're too lazy to come up with a metaphor of our own. Here's an example replacement: "So easy a congressman can do it." (I don't think I have to explain the childishness part). So, as colleges have higher proportions of women in the US, are we going to lose domestic undergraduate CS programs due to a lack of interest?

s_baby 14y ago

>Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. The problem is the agendas that ride on the coat-tails of such dialogues. If we could separate the baby from the bath water that'd be great but a culture moulded by P.C zealots does not make the culture a better place.