5 ms·

I think she would find it more encouraging if you said something like, "damn, sexism sucks," rather than, "I struggled with a difficult life and made it, and yo

by zasz 14y ago

I think she would find it more encouraging if you said something like, "damn, sexism sucks," rather than, "I struggled with a difficult life and made it, and you can too." I know you want to be encouraging, but ignoring the greater gender issues she was bringing up makes it seem like you're missing the point. I'm sure she is capable of getting encouragement from her friends, but publicizing sexism in the tech industry is for, well, the public, which includes men like you.

nhangen 14y ago
But he's right, and this isn't sexism...and God I'm so tired of hearing about sexism in tech...this is life. If you are different, people probably won't understand and will react negatively towards it. My wife isn't a math and science person, and she does not have the aptitude to be a programmer. Does that make me a sexist? Does that mean that all women are just like her? The answer is no, it doesn't. People focus on what they want to hear in order to validate their opinions. Who among us that is ambitious hasn't grown up with the pain that is going against the grain? It sucks to be different, but that's the way it goes. Edit: Here is an example of what I mean. "For those of us who aren’t, it’s a regular signal that we’re not considered, that maybe we don’t belong." Absolutely not true. It's just a speaker trying to build rapport with their audience by talking about something they understand. "The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe." So only guys drink heavy? First of all, if you don't want to watch heavy drinking, don't go to an after party at a bar? Second, I've seen just as many wasted females as males at conference parties. "A paper cut for every conference." I've been to maybe a dozen conferences in the past 2-3 years and I haven't seen any of this. Maybe I've missed it, or I'm not looking, who knows.
- tghw 14y ago
  The problem is when it gets institutionalized. What's more likely, that your wife just happens to be someone who's not good at math and science, or someone who didn't receive enough encouragement to think she could do well in those subjects? Honestly, I have no idea, since I have no idea who your wife is. But the question cannot be dismissed outright. Studies that find things such as "Women perform better in math when tested without men"[1] are an indication that something is very wrong at a very fundamental level. [1] http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-023.html http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-023.h...
  - nhangen 14y ago
    She just wasn't interested, and still isn't. We've been together since school, and I watched her grow up...it had nothing to do with the teacher or institution. I know it probably isn't popular, but men and women are biologically different. I find it arrogant to believe that humans of the past decade are so intellectually superior that human physiology is of no consequence.
    - tghw 14y ago
      Like I said, I don't know your wife, so I can't comment. But she's not the point, anyway. The point is that you hear of "girls not being good at math and science" much more frequently. But when you control for societal factors, there's nothing that really separates male and female math abilities.
    - querulous 14y ago
      my girlfriend was miserable in her grad school program. it was becoming more and more apparent to her that she should have taken economic development but she'd avoided it because she was 'bad at math'. we spent the next three months doing a crash course of all the math she was 'bad' at and she went from barely understanding algebra to having a better grasp of statistics and calculus than i do. she was only 'bad at math' because she'd spent the first 25 years of her life around people who had let her be bad at math because she was a girl
- zasz 14y ago
  I honestly don't understand your comment. It is very difficult for me to parse properly. How is it not sexist towards women for them to hear comments like this? "If I had a dollar for every time someone suggested that some demographics just aren’t biologically predisposed to be good at programming (even though research does not support this argument), I’d be rich." I grew up hearing my father tell me that I wasn't good at math because I was a girl. Yes, he's fucking sexist, and so is everyone else who thinks that women can't be good at STEM fields. Props to you for apparently taking the time to carefully study your wife and decide she sucks at STEM because of who she is, and not because she's a woman, but there are plenty of engineers, like my father, who are not so kind. It's a constant, constant thorn to women in STEM, all the time, and I for one believe it is a miracle that they do not complain more.
  - ceol 14y ago
    I've heard those exact sentiments expressed on this very website, from people who were sitting at positive karma. It really isn't hard to see sexism in technology. It's a shame every time this subject comes up, guys clamor to be the first to post [dismissive reason] or [request for extremely specific example of sexism]. I mean, this submission is about a woman chronicling sexism against her, and there are guys in here just flat out saying, "This isn't sexist."
  - nhangen 14y ago
    It's the same for men that want to be nurses is it not? I agree that saying 'girls suck at math' is a bullshit comment, but ignorance is applied equally. Entrepreneurs, especially, get it from all sides. Part of my frustration stems from being tired of the worst class in America - privileged white male that wasn't born in the ghetto, but the rest of it is just tired of people looking for negativity all the time. It doesn't matter who you are, what gender you are, or what the color of your skin is - if you seek to be better than those around you, or different than the paradigm from which they view the world, then they will seek to put you on your ass.
    - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
      How about channelling your frustration into creating an environment for more women in tech?
- vacri 14y ago
  You're just sick of hearing about sexism in tech. How do you think the people who receive it feel? Sure, some regular shitty stuff applies to everyone and can get conflated with the sexist stuff, but there is still a clear strain of discouraging behaviour directed at women in tech.
- x1 14y ago
  > I'm so tired of hearing about sexism in tech > that's the way it goes. > I haven't seen any of this. Maybe I've missed it, or I'm not looking, who knows. Or possibly you're predisposed to an opinion and only look to reinforce it instead of challenge it?
  - nhangen 14y ago
    That could go both ways. My point is that I look all around me and I do not see anyone in my circle being sexist to women about their role in tech(or lack thereof). I coach a mixed basketball team and the girls are the best and most poised athletes on the team. Not a single one of the boys has complained or made a comment about it. I watch my daughter grow up, in her 2nd year of school, as she takes to reading/writing over math. She's good at both, but she prefers the former. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the scale that has the entire industry freaking out. If anything, the SendGrid situation proved that it can go both ways.
    - x1 14y ago
      > I do not see anyone ... I don't see it to the scale What scale do you see it? And what's the acceptable/unacceptable threshold? Right now you are jumping squarely into "this isn't an issue please move on and grow thicker skin", which is a lousy place to start a discussion. > entire industry freaking out. I really don't think my or your opinion matters, instead perhaps we should encourage more bloggers like this to speak out so we can see if there really is a problem. You know, encourage more data from the source instead of anecdotes like your wife and math? Because if there is a problem then we should solve it, right?
- newnewnew 14y ago
  The problem with heavy drinking is that it reduces females' safety far more than it reduces males' safety, even if both sexes are consuming.

by zasz 14y ago

nhangen 14y ago

But he's right, and this isn't sexism...and God I'm so tired of hearing about sexism in tech...this is life. If you are different, people probably won't understand and will react negatively towards it. My wife isn't a math and science person, and she does not have the aptitude to be a programmer. Does that make me a sexist? Does that mean that all women are just like her? The answer is no, it doesn't. People focus on what they want to hear in order to validate their opinions. Who among us that is ambitious hasn't grown up with the pain that is going against the grain? It sucks to be different, but that's the way it goes. Edit: Here is an example of what I mean. "For those of us who aren’t, it’s a regular signal that we’re not considered, that maybe we don’t belong." Absolutely not true. It's just a speaker trying to build rapport with their audience by talking about something they understand. "The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe." So only guys drink heavy? First of all, if you don't want to watch heavy drinking, don't go to an after party at a bar? Second, I've seen just as many wasted females as males at conference parties. "A paper cut for every conference." I've been to maybe a dozen conferences in the past 2-3 years and I haven't seen any of this. Maybe I've missed it, or I'm not looking, who knows.

tghw 14y ago
The problem is when it gets institutionalized. What's more likely, that your wife just happens to be someone who's not good at math and science, or someone who didn't receive enough encouragement to think she could do well in those subjects? Honestly, I have no idea, since I have no idea who your wife is. But the question cannot be dismissed outright. Studies that find things such as "Women perform better in math when tested without men"[1] are an indication that something is very wrong at a very fundamental level. [1] http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-023.html http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-023.h...
- nhangen 14y ago
  She just wasn't interested, and still isn't. We've been together since school, and I watched her grow up...it had nothing to do with the teacher or institution. I know it probably isn't popular, but men and women are biologically different. I find it arrogant to believe that humans of the past decade are so intellectually superior that human physiology is of no consequence.
  - tghw 14y ago
    Like I said, I don't know your wife, so I can't comment. But she's not the point, anyway. The point is that you hear of "girls not being good at math and science" much more frequently. But when you control for societal factors, there's nothing that really separates male and female math abilities.
  - querulous 14y ago
    my girlfriend was miserable in her grad school program. it was becoming more and more apparent to her that she should have taken economic development but she'd avoided it because she was 'bad at math'. we spent the next three months doing a crash course of all the math she was 'bad' at and she went from barely understanding algebra to having a better grasp of statistics and calculus than i do. she was only 'bad at math' because she'd spent the first 25 years of her life around people who had let her be bad at math because she was a girl
zasz 14y ago
I honestly don't understand your comment. It is very difficult for me to parse properly. How is it not sexist towards women for them to hear comments like this? "If I had a dollar for every time someone suggested that some demographics just aren’t biologically predisposed to be good at programming (even though research does not support this argument), I’d be rich." I grew up hearing my father tell me that I wasn't good at math because I was a girl. Yes, he's fucking sexist, and so is everyone else who thinks that women can't be good at STEM fields. Props to you for apparently taking the time to carefully study your wife and decide she sucks at STEM because of who she is, and not because she's a woman, but there are plenty of engineers, like my father, who are not so kind. It's a constant, constant thorn to women in STEM, all the time, and I for one believe it is a miracle that they do not complain more.
- ceol 14y ago
  I've heard those exact sentiments expressed on this very website, from people who were sitting at positive karma. It really isn't hard to see sexism in technology. It's a shame every time this subject comes up, guys clamor to be the first to post [dismissive reason] or [request for extremely specific example of sexism]. I mean, this submission is about a woman chronicling sexism against her, and there are guys in here just flat out saying, "This isn't sexist."
- nhangen 14y ago
  It's the same for men that want to be nurses is it not? I agree that saying 'girls suck at math' is a bullshit comment, but ignorance is applied equally. Entrepreneurs, especially, get it from all sides. Part of my frustration stems from being tired of the worst class in America - privileged white male that wasn't born in the ghetto, but the rest of it is just tired of people looking for negativity all the time. It doesn't matter who you are, what gender you are, or what the color of your skin is - if you seek to be better than those around you, or different than the paradigm from which they view the world, then they will seek to put you on your ass.
  - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
    How about channelling your frustration into creating an environment for more women in tech?
vacri 14y ago
You're just sick of hearing about sexism in tech. How do you think the people who receive it feel? Sure, some regular shitty stuff applies to everyone and can get conflated with the sexist stuff, but there is still a clear strain of discouraging behaviour directed at women in tech.
x1 14y ago
> I'm so tired of hearing about sexism in tech > that's the way it goes. > I haven't seen any of this. Maybe I've missed it, or I'm not looking, who knows. Or possibly you're predisposed to an opinion and only look to reinforce it instead of challenge it?
- nhangen 14y ago
  That could go both ways. My point is that I look all around me and I do not see anyone in my circle being sexist to women about their role in tech(or lack thereof). I coach a mixed basketball team and the girls are the best and most poised athletes on the team. Not a single one of the boys has complained or made a comment about it. I watch my daughter grow up, in her 2nd year of school, as she takes to reading/writing over math. She's good at both, but she prefers the former. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the scale that has the entire industry freaking out. If anything, the SendGrid situation proved that it can go both ways.
  - x1 14y ago
    > I do not see anyone ... I don't see it to the scale What scale do you see it? And what's the acceptable/unacceptable threshold? Right now you are jumping squarely into "this isn't an issue please move on and grow thicker skin", which is a lousy place to start a discussion. > entire industry freaking out. I really don't think my or your opinion matters, instead perhaps we should encourage more bloggers like this to speak out so we can see if there really is a problem. You know, encourage more data from the source instead of anecdotes like your wife and math? Because if there is a problem then we should solve it, right?
newnewnew 14y ago
The problem with heavy drinking is that it reduces females' safety far more than it reduces males' safety, even if both sexes are consuming.