4 ms·

" I’ve had people claim minority-only safe spaces are sexist. " What is a minority-only safe space? Is it just a segregated area that implies safety in homog

" I’ve had people claim minority-only safe spaces are sexist. " What is a minority-only safe space? Is it just a segregated area that implies safety in homogeneity, or is there some other mechanism to ensure "safety"? I can imagine segregating all of a particular minority into their own area of the office for their own "safety". Hopefully that's not what this is.

juridatenshi 14y ago
I was alluding to groups (in person or online) that are limited to only a specific minority audience, usually with the intent of creating a space where those people will feel safe to speak freely. For example, the Devchix mailing list is only open to women-identified people.
- tiredofcareer 14y ago
  Not trolling, I'm genuinely asking: Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend? I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?) As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are? Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it. (I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.) --- EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    edit: Hi, sorry about this tree. Wildly off-topic and unproductive. Page down a bit until you find something interesting.
    - tiredofcareer 14y ago
      Name a community where that's a barrier to entry.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        tiredofcareer 14y ago
        I don't. That's sort of my point; we snub groups on the other side of this coin.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        tiredofcareer 14y ago
        I don't, again, and since you lead me down this path I was hoping you did. I meant we snub the KKK and neo-Nazis. For what it's worth, I spent four months around neo-Nazis when I went to prison. Not what I expected, but that's irrelevant to this point.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        tiredofcareer 14y ago
        What would your family say if you rang them up and said you'd joined the neo-Nazis? (Assuming you qualify to join for the purposes of the hypothetical.)
steveklabnik 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
- sneak 14y ago
  I think that the fundamental issue is that, while reasonable people understand that jokes, even in-group jokes that may potentially exclude someone atypical (for any definition of atypical), do not an unsafe space make... there are still others who would hold up such jokes (which are easy to attack, though not the root cause) and the idea of a "safe space" (which is a good thing), and claim that "this is the problem". They are wrong. The problem is never jokes.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    You're right, the problem is never jokes: it's the social power behind the joke. If I am upset, and I say "I'm so mad, I'm going to kill you!" in a joking manner, that's one thing. If I say "I'm so mad, I'm going to kill you!" while brandishing a handgun, well, that's an entirely different manner. I'm not sure why you're bringing up jokes, neither page I linked to contains information about jokes. The point of safe spaces is not to protect people from jokes. The point of safe spaces is that a place exists where, for example, you don't need to explain for the Nth time how $SITUATION is or is not marginalizing against $GROUP, and feel safe that no members of $OPPRESSIVE_GROUP will show up and derail/invade/disrupt/cause harm to the group. To answer via your original question, it is 'safety in homogeneity.'

juridatenshi 14y ago

I was alluding to groups (in person or online) that are limited to only a specific minority audience, usually with the intent of creating a space where those people will feel safe to speak freely. For example, the Devchix mailing list is only open to women-identified people.

tiredofcareer 14y ago
Not trolling, I'm genuinely asking: Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend? I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?) As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are? Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it. (I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.) --- EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  edit: Hi, sorry about this tree. Wildly off-topic and unproductive. Page down a bit until you find something interesting.
  - tiredofcareer 14y ago
    Name a community where that's a barrier to entry.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
      - tiredofcareer 14y ago
        I don't. That's sort of my point; we snub groups on the other side of this coin.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        tiredofcareer 14y ago
        I don't, again, and since you lead me down this path I was hoping you did. I meant we snub the KKK and neo-Nazis. For what it's worth, I spent four months around neo-Nazis when I went to prison. Not what I expected, but that's irrelevant to this point.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        tiredofcareer 14y ago
        What would your family say if you rang them up and said you'd joined the neo-Nazis? (Assuming you qualify to join for the purposes of the hypothetical.)

steveklabnik 14y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space

sneak 14y ago
I think that the fundamental issue is that, while reasonable people understand that jokes, even in-group jokes that may potentially exclude someone atypical (for any definition of atypical), do not an unsafe space make... there are still others who would hold up such jokes (which are easy to attack, though not the root cause) and the idea of a "safe space" (which is a good thing), and claim that "this is the problem". They are wrong. The problem is never jokes.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  You're right, the problem is never jokes: it's the social power behind the joke. If I am upset, and I say "I'm so mad, I'm going to kill you!" in a joking manner, that's one thing. If I say "I'm so mad, I'm going to kill you!" while brandishing a handgun, well, that's an entirely different manner. I'm not sure why you're bringing up jokes, neither page I linked to contains information about jokes. The point of safe spaces is not to protect people from jokes. The point of safe spaces is that a place exists where, for example, you don't need to explain for the Nth time how $SITUATION is or is not marginalizing against $GROUP, and feel safe that no members of $OPPRESSIVE_GROUP will show up and derail/invade/disrupt/cause harm to the group. To answer via your original question, it is 'safety in homogeneity.'