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Sounds like you're taking a Romney-esque "binders full of women" approach to getting more women into tech, as if to say that unequal access is the major reason

Sounds like you're taking a Romney-esque "binders full of women" approach to getting more women into tech, as if to say that unequal access is the major reason that women are underrepresented in tech. Guess what? Putting a big neon sign in front of a strip club advertising "50% off drinks for ladies" isn't going to drive more women to the establishment. Turning the strip club into a dance club, however, will bring a ton more women. The problem we're having is that men in tech love their strip clubs so much that they'd rather just get rid of the woman patrons altogether.

rayiner 14y ago
I object to the idea that what we need to do in tech is create a "kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk. That's not what's keeping women out of tech. It's the very real worry that they won't find good mentorship, won't be taken seriously, will be passed over for promotions, etc. Fixing those problems requires a laser-like focus on, well, those problems. Diluting that focus by waging war on all the other things that might offend people, things that don't go to those core issues, is a losing proposition.
- niggler 14y ago
  There's a profound difference between 'refraining from obvious and offensive references' and '"kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk.' References to porn or sex or virginity or rape or molestation or fondling or groping are not appropriate for a tech conference, and some of those topics are not appropriate for any sort of discourse (as we saw with Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" remarks) "Our goal is to create an inclusive, respectful conference environment that invites participation from people of all races, ethnicities, genders, ages, abilities, religions, and sexual orientations. " https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/diversity/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/diversity/
  - rayiner 14y ago
    It's not a question of whether comments like this should be made or not made at a tech conference. It's a question of, essentially, "standing to object." It's not about right and wrong, but "effective politics" versus "ineffective politics."
- dalke 14y ago
  You may be interested in reading more about the Title VII protections in US civil rights law. If PyCon were a workplace that was large enough to be under Title VII, then a truthful complaint about sexual harassment is given extra protection. For example, a company cannot retaliate due to a complaint, including by using an otherwise valid justification as pretext for a . The complaint may be made in public, and the complainant may picket, talk with important customers, newspaper reporters, etc.. The person who makes the complaint does not need to be the person affected by the sexual harassment or other forms of discrimination under Title VII, and for sexual harassment there does not even need to be a component of sexual desire. This is confirmed by the courts, up even to multiple Supreme Court cases. This has nothing to do with creating 'a "kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk.' It has to do with exercising civil right protections that people already have at most companies. These same civil rights laws apply to men. You might read about Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services, Inc. I'll quote from the Supreme Court's decision: > In late October 1991, Oncale was working for respondent Sundowner Offshore Services on a Chevron U.S. A., Inc., oil platform in the Gulf of Mexico. ... On several occasions, Oncale was forcibly subjected to sex-related, humiliating actions against him by Lyons, Pippen and Johnson in the presence of the rest of the crew. Pippen and Lyons also physically assulted Oncale in a sexual manner, and Lyons threatened him with rape. > Oncale’s complaints to supervisory personnel produced no remedial action; in fact, the company’s Safety Compliance Clerk, Valent Hohen, told Oncale that Lyons and Pippen “picked [on] him all the time too,” and called him a name suggesting homosexuality. Id., at 77. Oncale eventually quit–asking that his pink slip reflect that he “voluntarily left due to sexual harassment and verbal abuse.” Id., at 79. When asked at his deposition why he left Sundowner, Oncale stated “I felt that if I didn’t leave my job, that I would be raped or forced to have sex.” Id., at 71. The law that keeps you from being in a workplace where others can threaten you with rape is the same law that lets others, women and men, speak out about possible sexual harassment in the workplace. Including, yes, even complaining about sexual jokes. You think it's to do with "offense", but the law and the courts are clear that "Title VII . . . does not set forth a general civility code for the American workplace." Instead, "a plaintiff must show that a rational jury could find that the workplace [was] permeated with discriminatory intimidation, ridicule, and insult, that is sufficiently severe or pervasive to alter the conditions of the victim's employment and create an abusive working environment." The Supreme Court has instructed that courts judging hostility should "filter out complaints attacking the ordinary tribulations of the workplace, such as the sporadic use of age-related jokes, and occasional teasing". The easiest way for a company to comply is to set a very low threshold for reporting a possible incident, and let the EEOC compliance person investigate and develop an appropriate remedy, if needed. PyCon isn't a Title VII workplace, and there are difficulties in mapping EEOC guidelines to a conference environment, but I believe the conference should still be guided by the same moral basis as the civil rights laws. Unless you think it's okay for your workplace to allow your co-workers to subject you to "sex-related, humiliating actions", then you should defend those same moral principles and stop thinking that the debate includes a request for a right to not be offended. Even using your "laser-like" focus metaphor, you shouldn't have all of your lasers pointed in the same direction. Problems come from all directions, and different people should and do focus on the problems that most interest and/or affect them.

rayiner 14y ago

I object to the idea that what we need to do in tech is create a "kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk. That's not what's keeping women out of tech. It's the very real worry that they won't find good mentorship, won't be taken seriously, will be passed over for promotions, etc. Fixing those problems requires a laser-like focus on, well, those problems. Diluting that focus by waging war on all the other things that might offend people, things that don't go to those core issues, is a losing proposition.

niggler 14y ago
There's a profound difference between 'refraining from obvious and offensive references' and '"kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk.' References to porn or sex or virginity or rape or molestation or fondling or groping are not appropriate for a tech conference, and some of those topics are not appropriate for any sort of discourse (as we saw with Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" remarks) "Our goal is to create an inclusive, respectful conference environment that invites participation from people of all races, ethnicities, genders, ages, abilities, religions, and sexual orientations. " https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/diversity/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/diversity/
- rayiner 14y ago
  It's not a question of whether comments like this should be made or not made at a tech conference. It's a question of, essentially, "standing to object." It's not about right and wrong, but "effective politics" versus "ineffective politics."
dalke 14y ago
You may be interested in reading more about the Title VII protections in US civil rights law. If PyCon were a workplace that was large enough to be under Title VII, then a truthful complaint about sexual harassment is given extra protection. For example, a company cannot retaliate due to a complaint, including by using an otherwise valid justification as pretext for a . The complaint may be made in public, and the complainant may picket, talk with important customers, newspaper reporters, etc.. The person who makes the complaint does not need to be the person affected by the sexual harassment or other forms of discrimination under Title VII, and for sexual harassment there does not even need to be a component of sexual desire. This is confirmed by the courts, up even to multiple Supreme Court cases. This has nothing to do with creating 'a "kinder, gentler" atmosphere appropriate for delicate-minded women-folk.' It has to do with exercising civil right protections that people already have at most companies. These same civil rights laws apply to men. You might read about Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services, Inc. I'll quote from the Supreme Court's decision: > In late October 1991, Oncale was working for respondent Sundowner Offshore Services on a Chevron U.S. A., Inc., oil platform in the Gulf of Mexico. ... On several occasions, Oncale was forcibly subjected to sex-related, humiliating actions against him by Lyons, Pippen and Johnson in the presence of the rest of the crew. Pippen and Lyons also physically assulted Oncale in a sexual manner, and Lyons threatened him with rape. > Oncale’s complaints to supervisory personnel produced no remedial action; in fact, the company’s Safety Compliance Clerk, Valent Hohen, told Oncale that Lyons and Pippen “picked [on] him all the time too,” and called him a name suggesting homosexuality. Id., at 77. Oncale eventually quit–asking that his pink slip reflect that he “voluntarily left due to sexual harassment and verbal abuse.” Id., at 79. When asked at his deposition why he left Sundowner, Oncale stated “I felt that if I didn’t leave my job, that I would be raped or forced to have sex.” Id., at 71. The law that keeps you from being in a workplace where others can threaten you with rape is the same law that lets others, women and men, speak out about possible sexual harassment in the workplace. Including, yes, even complaining about sexual jokes. You think it's to do with "offense", but the law and the courts are clear that "Title VII . . . does not set forth a general civility code for the American workplace." Instead, "a plaintiff must show that a rational jury could find that the workplace [was] permeated with discriminatory intimidation, ridicule, and insult, that is sufficiently severe or pervasive to alter the conditions of the victim's employment and create an abusive working environment." The Supreme Court has instructed that courts judging hostility should "filter out complaints attacking the ordinary tribulations of the workplace, such as the sporadic use of age-related jokes, and occasional teasing". The easiest way for a company to comply is to set a very low threshold for reporting a possible incident, and let the EEOC compliance person investigate and develop an appropriate remedy, if needed. PyCon isn't a Title VII workplace, and there are difficulties in mapping EEOC guidelines to a conference environment, but I believe the conference should still be guided by the same moral basis as the civil rights laws. Unless you think it's okay for your workplace to allow your co-workers to subject you to "sex-related, humiliating actions", then you should defend those same moral principles and stop thinking that the debate includes a request for a right to not be offended. Even using your "laser-like" focus metaphor, you shouldn't have all of your lasers pointed in the same direction. Problems come from all directions, and different people should and do focus on the problems that most interest and/or affect them.