12 ms·

Mother raising money through Kickstarter to send daughter to RPG camp

73 points by jmount 14y ago

zalzane 14y ago
The only thing that -really- bothers me about this kickstarter is that people kept donating after it had passed its goal by such a ridiculous amount. I can understand it ending at a few hundred dollars more than they asked, but 20x the original asking amount? Really? It's as if the people donating don't really care that donating more money may complicate things - they just want to donate so they can get their daily "I'm such a nice person" high. I can't help but wonder whether or not this controversy would have even happened if the donators had stopped at the target amount of 800 dollars.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
supbeta 14y ago
oh my...
jmount 14y ago
Just in case my title gets de-editorialized. I submitted this as 'Fraud: Millionaire using Kickstarter "girl controversy" to raise money.' (did have to edit out some typos on my part) The kickstarter isn't raising money for camp (as you might guess), but for single rich individual. I am all for more funding to support young girls in computing. I would just like to see it applied to those that would not receive such benefits without additional help. I am not for "shaming" in general, but I feel exposure is the only way to try to set this right. And this is ongoing, Susan Wilson has not withdrawn the Kickstarter which has collected over $22,000 to send a rich girl to summer camp.
- EliRivers 14y ago
  So is your problem that the money is going towards a training course, or is your problem that she could have raised the money some other way? Where is the fraud, by the way? What is she lying about? Are the people who are choosing to give their money to this being totally fooled and they think their money will be spent on something completely different?
  - mnicole 14y ago
    I'd read the course was already paid for before the mom started the Kickstarter, and in their TOS it says you can't use it for "fund-my-life" and charity purposes.
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      As I read the front page, it looks like a small amount (deposit?) has been paid and 1098 dollars are left to pay. I'm going purely on information on the front page; the rest of it is comments and people's private investigations and all sorts of other stuff with, frankly, as much weight as the front page itself. I suspect a great deal of people's upset is caused by the fact that her mother could afford it. I've got no personal issue with people raising funds however they can. Other people's opinions differ, of course. I don't consider a training course necessary to create the product "fund my life", but again other people do. Presumably they'd be happy with a mountain of textbooks and some expensive hardware (although some of them complain that she intends to also buy a laptop, brilliantly on the grounds that it's a common item in their particular social environment, which presumably means that it's something they had to buy with their own money so why should she get one for free).
  - jmount 14y ago
    My problem is rich people soliciting donations for their selves (under the sneaky implication they are somebody who needs this). As to Fraud from the Kickstarter: "My goal is to raise $829 to cover the cost of RPG Camp." The fraud is the implication the girl needs the money and won't get to go if we don't fund it. Or any implication this will help other girls than this one. Additional fraud is the Kickstarter is being run by a minor who can't enter into contracts, set up Amazon/Paypall accounts and so on. I guess it isn't fraud if you have enough after the fact apologists.
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      Is it still fraud if you announce it in big letters on the front page? If there is no deception involved? "My problem is rich people soliciting donations for their selves (under the sneaky implication they are somebody who needs this)." Are you by chance a citizen of a major first world country? If so, have you tried to do anything about this already? Major industries constantly take subsidies and kickbacks and all the rest of it that they don't need, with the money being funnelled to wealthy people. Have you written to your representative to ask about this? If not, maybe you could start there rather than here.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  I think this Kickatarter says more about Susan Wilson than it does about Kickstarter.
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    Somehow I am not surprised that her day job is running a debt collection company.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  If you had a problem with the Kickstarter, why didn't you take it up with the person who started it? Since we're all supposedly against public shaming, I only think it's right that we DDoS your employer's network until they fire you.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  Why would you guess it's raising money for camp whe the title is "9 Year Old Building an RPG to Prove Her Brothers Wrong!"? I'm raising $829 to cover the cost of attending this RPG STEM Camp for kids I think it's pretty clear. They could put the extra funds towards some kind of charity though.
  - FireBeyond 14y ago
    There's the TOS violations: "fund my life" - buying her daughter a laptop (camp provides IT resources" "fund tuition" - educational camp, pretty self-explanatory And then the rest of the tastelessness - I'm fairly certain a nine year old isn't at all involved in beer cozies saying "I drink like a girl, keep up!" etc.
jessaustin 14y ago
If Kickstarter doesn't stop this sort of thing, it will soon be overrun with this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily against soliciting charity for those who may not deserve it (after all that would mean I'm against most non-profits in the USA), and there may be a sustainable business model for it somewhere else, but if this becomes "a thing" it will detract from the point of Kickstarter.
EliRivers 14y ago
Conversation already running here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427771 and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5425235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5425235 and probably elsewhere as well.
- jmount 14y ago
  I submitted it in good faith. I didn't see it and I didn't try to alter URLs. And I don't want or need the Karma. I don't think it is getting enough attention, so I am trying to help. Now that I have checked. The others submissions really didn't point out the kickstarter wasn't benefitting anyone but one rich girl. $20,000 for many girls would be a good cause, but this is very much not.
- olalonde 14y ago
  Out of curiosity, are you in any way affiliated with this Kickstarter? Your comment history shows 10 comments on the topic so far, mostly siding with the mother.
  - corin_ 14y ago
    If your opinion was on the side of the mother wouldn't you find yourself commenting quite a few times given the bombard of comments on the other side, without the need for a hidden agenda?
    - jessaustin 14y ago
      Given the comments made, GP has a valid question.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    If I was with Kickstarter, I'd simply tell you the official position and none of these threads would have happened. I certainly wouldn't be engaged in this kind of back and forth when we'd have a company policy on it and probably someone whose job is to monitor and manage this kind of public discussion.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
DividesByZero 14y ago
Strong argument for a 'maximum' cap on kickstarter funding.
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  How would it be decided, though? By the person posting the Kickstarter? Despite claiming to be about raising less than $1,000 this Kickstarter allotted up to 5 rewards for $10,000 donations -- so I'm going to guess in this case they wouldn't have voluntarily put a sane cap on this.
  - petercooper 14y ago
    It could be a multiple of the original amount, perhaps. That is, at a 2x multiple, say, an attempt at raising $800 could go no further than $1600.
    - eridius 14y ago
      Terrible idea. That would have severely impacted all of the high-profile projects to date. Whoa, HN double-posted my comment. Never seen that happen before.
      - petercooper 14y ago
        The thing is, the big heavily funded projects I can recall all got to that stage by essentially selling something (the OUYA stands out in this regard). And Kickstarter now seem to be making the point that it's not about selling stuff but just raising enough to produce something you can sell separately later. So while I don't actually agree with my own idea, it would seem to fit with the new line of thinking over there IMHO. (Happens to me every now and then, but the software is smart enough to [dead] the dupes, somehow.)
        eridius 14y ago
        Sure, they sold something. This is the first "high-profile" (whereby that I mean I'm actually seeing it on HN or some other aggregator that I read) Kickstarter I've seen that isn't really about the actual thing being created. That said, backers are actually getting a copy of the game, plus other perks, just like any other video game kickstarter. The only reason there's any controversy seems to be the fact that the mother in question could presumably have afforded to do this without the kickstarter. But as others have said, just because she could have afforded to do this another way doesn't make the kickstarter somehow wrong. (And yeah, HN did [dead] the dupe, which I then deleted, I've just never had this happen before).
torya 14y ago
i just contacted kickstarter via email. i hope they take down this cheating fraud bitch. she has a lot of nerve to be so blatantly stealing other people's hard earned money.
- EliRivers 14y ago
  Is it still theft if you tell them in advance what you want it for and they choose to give it to you? Our judicial system says no, but your opinion is considered valid too!
  - torya 14y ago
    A thief is a thief, it doesn't matter if she pimps out her kids to Johns on the internet willing to pay the cash for a fuck. As long as she takes the money she is guilty, and human trash too.
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      Perhaps you don't know what theft is. Theft is taking something that belongs to someone else (without permission) with the intent of keeping it. She is not taking anything. People are choosing to give her money. She's not (obviously) defrauding anyone either; she explained what the money is going towards. Maybe it is all a scam and she doesn't exist and it's going on coke n' hookers, but you don't know that any more than I do. You, however, don't like this, and you don't like that people are choosing to give her some money, but you are unable to express yourself clearly. All you have is your pathetic rage and your inability to explain what you don't like about the situation. Does it make you feel like a big man? Are you going to start issuing death threats now? You're safe to do that; this is your new throwaway account, yes? So you can let you inner rage out without losing any of your precious social approval.
      - torya 14y ago
        What about those people who invest money in an unknown ponzi scheme? Bernard Madoff stole billions yet the victims gave to him willingly.
smoyer 14y ago
Most millionaires become rich by keeping as much of their income as they can ... I guess it's easier if you're willing to give up a good reputation in the process. When I read the KS campaign, I thought it was a bit weird that the mom was obviously doing the writing, but I hadn't researched Susan Wilson at all. Maybe she was really just trying to show her daughter how to reach for her dreams but she'll have to be careful with the extra money or she'll teach her the wrong things. I'd suggest using the extra money to send needy kids to the computer camp.
citricsquid 14y ago
Just skimmed the article and kickstarter page so maybe this is addressed already: (speculation) surely this isn't about the money, it's about publicity for the game camp? They don't need the money if her profile is to be believed (although the amount of supposed millionaires around that are dirt poor means it's plausible she isn't rich). She probably has some connection with the game camp. Edit: actually I want to revise that statement, on looking through her website links I think it's more likely this is advertising for her, she's trying to build a brand. I assume she'll go a long way off the back off "next on USA Today, the crowd-sourcing mom!" or something. She's got her own female entrepreneur thing at fundher.com. Maybe that's it.
- jmount 14y ago
  Then why don't they collect money for the camp instead of for themselves?
- tdicola 14y ago
  That sounds pretty plausible. Make a great example of crowd funding for Moms, then turn around and pump your crowd funding business.
rmc 14y ago
Can't really see the fraud here.
infoman 14y ago
report abuse now: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w/report/new http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-b...
- infoman 14y ago
  I don't know if it is alright but i made a new news item of this with a clear call to action and hope we can take this project off kickstarter. let's get it done, hack0rs
  - infoman 14y ago
    Save Kickstarter from scam - report this fake sexist project (kickstarter.com)
flippyhead 14y ago
If it's the mom saying "hey look kid you need to earn your way in this life, but if you really want to go to this camp, one thing you could try is kickstarter" then that's great! I had plenty of super wealthy friends growing up and the ones that tended to be of solid character had parents that led them in such ways. Why does a parent having a ton of money necessarily mean the approach advocated for the child to take/learn should be different than for less wealthy parents? Though I do agree kickstarter ought to disallow this sort of thing regardless.
keiferski 14y ago
I don't get it. Is it fraud because she already has enough money to pay for it, but opted to use Kickstarter instead? How is that fraud? Is every millionaire startup founder who raises capital a fraud as well?
- jmount 14y ago
  I think most people think they are donating to somebody who needs it or to a camp itself. Not to a single person. I presume that is how they got $22,000 in commitments for a $900 fee. That is the fraud. And the "it isn't fraud because it was written the kickstarter was pointless." That just makes it a particular type of fraud.
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    What made you arrive to that conclusion? The kickstarter text makes it clear it's going towards this girl's camp fees and a laptop.
- itafroma 14y ago
  I think there's a fair bit of double standards here. Here's a short, by-no-means-exhaustive list of well received, wildly successful Kickstarter campaigns started by multi-millionaires who could've easily offered the funding themselves: * Double Fine Adventure (Tim Schaefer): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-a... * Yogventures (the Yogscast): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventu... * Veronica Mars Project (Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-mars-movie-project?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-m... * Wasteland 2 (inXile Entertainment, run by Brian Fargo): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 * Torment (2nd Kickstarter run by inXile Entertainment, before even fulfilling Wasteland 2): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-... * Project Eternity (Obsidian Entertainment, a AAA games company, run by Chris Jones): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity?ref=most-funded http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternit... * Project Godus (22 Cans, run by Peter Molyneux): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus?ref... Why a nine-year-old girl and her ostensibly well-to-do mother get called out as "fraud" but not everyone else is something I don't really understand.
Metapony 14y ago
There are so many girls whose parents aren't millionaires who need our help that I am a little shocked that so many people were misled in backing this. I think Susan Wilson's comments on the kickstarter are a fine example of shooting yourself in the foot. It's actually a little funny to see the comments go from very positive at first to negative as more and more concerns are raised. It's She's clearly exploiting her children and the goodwill of the community. I'll be very surprised if Kickstarter doesn't put a stop to this very quickly.
- torya 14y ago
  some women would do anything for money.
  - Metapony 14y ago
    Now I didn't, and wouldn't, say that. (That's a rather rude thing to say.) I do think that Susan Wilson probably doesn't need the money. But more importantly, I think this kickstarter (and however much notoriety it generates) is more what Susan Wilson is after here. It's almost finely crafted to be controversial, just at an edge of what is acceptable, and will be something she can cite for the next decade in interviews. It's clear that this particular woman doesn't need the money, but the fame she generates in exploiting her child is priceless. edit: for clarity
  - mst 14y ago
    Yes, indeed, some people will do anything for money. And, believe it or not, women are people too!
pud 14y ago
I don't think this is fraud. Looks to me like a mom & daughter made something together and put it on the internet. I live in an affluent part of San Francisco (Noe Valley) and last week saw lots of rich moms selling girl scout cookies with their daughters, mom doing all the "work." Is that fraud? Also, nowhere do I see anything in the article (or the CNN article it links to) about the mom's finances. Just because you have a business does not mean you're rich -- it often means the contrary.
- jmount 14y ago
  A non-fraud would have promised excess collected to other children and causes.
  - zethraeus 14y ago
    Perhaps the proper appropriation of the raised money is a better thing to petition for than the campaign's banning?
- rgbrenner 14y ago
  "last week saw lots of rich moms selling girl scout cookies with their daughters, mom doing all the "work." Is that fraud?" Good strawman. Of course, girl scout money goes to the Girl Scouts, and not the parents or the kids. Whereas, the money collected from this kickstarter goes into Mom's pocket. So they aren't really he same at all. Of course you knew that.
  - pud 14y ago
    The moms told me that about 20% goes to the Girl Scouts and the troop keeps 80%.
    - rgbrenner 14y ago
      The local Girl Scout troop. ie: a local branch of the Girl Scouts. That changes absolutely nothing about my criticism of your post.
- 14y ago
SODaniel 14y ago
Fraud? No. Distasteful, dishonest, stupid and incredibly callous? Yes.
rogueSkib 14y ago
Older siblings tend to give little siblings a hard time in general, regardless of their gender. This is most definitely a publicity stunt at Kickstarter's expense. Millionaire's begging others to fund their child's camp is not something you see every day, and it most certainly doesn't belong on Kickstarter.
tomasien 14y ago
I don't think this is fraud, but I'm not sure it's currently allowed on Kickstarter. The problem is, this is "$829 so I can go to camp", not funding the game itself. So normally the excess money is explicitly for continuing to develop whatever is being funded, but in this instance that may be LIKELY but it's not explicit. However, having a bunch of money and being able to afford something without Kickstarter is meaningless in this equation. The fact that the mom is a wealthy person has 0 pertinence.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  The pitch copy explicitly says the money over the goal will go to extending her time at camp, up to the length of the entire summer. I don't know how much that would cost, but I think we're probably past that now, and I don't see any indication what the rest will go towards. I've wished in the past that Kickstarter required some sort of open accounting for projects funded through them. But in practice I don't know how that would work. There's no effective leverage outside of setting that as a standard. If someone didn't, nothing could be done other than community pressure.
infoman 14y ago
vote this up ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433664
niggler 14y ago
For those wondering if kickstarter will do anything about this: It's pretty clear that kickstarter is happy with getting the 5% cut, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more of this in the future.
- illuminate 14y ago
  Yup. Just as eBay doesn't care about shill bidders that bid up the price, Kickstarter doesn't ~really~ care about their users getting scammed through violations of their TOS as long as they make their cut.
downandout 14y ago
This is not fraud. If the basis of the campaign were that her family is just too poor to send her, that would be fraud. But that is clearly not in there. As far as whether she needs it or not, many kids with rich parents don't get to enjoy that money. Some rich parents are just downright cheap and selfish, and others want to teach their kids the value of a dollar. My guess is that the daughter asked for the money, and mom wanted to teach her how to go out and get it instead of just asking her. They worked together and created a successful campaign. The people calling this fraud are jealous. They look at their own kickstarter campaigns that aren't nearly as successful and wonder why they haven't been as "lucky". Looks like the mother is successfully teaching her daughter how to make her own luck, and that isn't a bad lesson to learn.
- Smudge 14y ago
  I agree. The net worth of the mother does not somehow make it more of a fraud than if the family genuinely couldn't afford the tuition. However, from Kickstarter's policies: > Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects. Summer camp tuition (plus a new laptop) are not good enough as a project goal, IMO, and may very well violate Kickstarter's policies.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  "and others want to teach their kids the value of a dollar" In this case, the value of a dollar being "I'll overproduce a PowerPoint, spam some celebrities and women's groups on Twitter, we'll include a few pictures of you being all cute and smiling, and people will just throw money at you!" "They worked together" - BS. Their merchandise includes beer coolers with adult slogans. Their marketing includes spamming of women's rights groups, and celebrities. You don't honestly believe that this was driven by the nine year old, and not her multimillionaire debt collecting mom, who made her initial fortune squatting on kinkos.com, do you?
  - downandout 14y ago
inmygarage 14y ago
I am a backer of this project, and after reading this post I am still very happy to be involved. There is so much involved in this project that simply isn't financial. Going through the process of putting up the Kickstarter project creates accountability and motivation for Mackenzie to actually build and finish the game because she now has a group of people cheering her on from the sidelines. To me this is exactly what Kickstarter is about: supporting creative endeavors. The financial aspect of it is secondary...don't you think Kirsten Bell could just bankroll the $2m Veronica Mars movie herself? Probably. But with Kickstarter you get the benefit of a built-in support group, and I am just as happy to support Mackenzie whether she's from a rich or poor family.
- jcc80 14y ago
  This mom previously tried to raise $20k to make...capes. How much of this $20k+ do you think the 9 yr. old is getting? She's also spamming celebs and women's groups on twitter - http://i.imgur.com/b4l2fI2.png http://i.imgur.com/b4l2fI2.png. I'd be happy to back a child interested in tech but I don't think her daughter made this - http://i.imgur.com/F03oG3e.png http://i.imgur.com/F03oG3e.png.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  ...don't you think Kirsten Bell could just bankroll the $2m Veronica Mars movie herself? Why on earth would anyone think that? It isn't hard to find out what work she's done [0]: on that page, I see a bunch of guest appearances on TV, roles in a few movies I've never heard of, and a starring role on one TV series, to which she was signed when absolutely unknown. (Unknown actors signed to new programs are typically locked in for years of low pay, because they're "lucky to be working at all".) Also she is listed as producer of one minor movie and one planned movie. I certainly hope Ms. Bell has good financial habits, but I don't see how she could have saved $.2M from this body of work, let alone $2M, especially while living in Hollywood. [0] http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068338/ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068338/
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  "Going through the process of putting up the Kickstarter project creates accountability and motivation for Mackenzie to actually build and finish the game because she now has a group of people cheering her on from the sidelines." Guess you missed the part that originally, there was absolutely no mention of a game or result in the rewards - that was only added after the tornado touched down.
jcc80 14y ago
Brilliant way to capitalize on recent news by this mom. Smart lady. Her daughter will be thrilled when she finds out enough money was raised for her to attend the camp. As for the rest of the money...
Smudge 14y ago
It's not fraud simply because the mother is a millionaire. But it's probably against Kickstarter's policies nonetheless: > Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects. I suppose one could construe summer camp tuition as "training" and the new laptop she'll be getting (see "Where is the money going" section) as equipment costs. But that's really not what is happening.
rogueSkib 14y ago
This reddit post sums up everything wrong with this, quotes the broken KS rules, and links to evidence: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/c91g8yn http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th...
olalonde 14y ago
This comment on Reddit is quite interesting: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/c91g8yn http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th...
SODaniel 14y ago
Why was the title rewritten and the thread effectively killed?
mnicole 14y ago
My opinion is that if this were a more sincere Kickstarter that focused on the child, I'd give it a pass. Instead it reads as a mother's ignorant views on sex and sexuality ironically being used to generate sympathy for gender issues and, ultimately, profit. She even manages to hate on developers by saying "as a businessperson" she feels like she's "at their mercy" instead of taking some responsibility and educating herself before hiring people she feels used by. She says she's glad her daughter's getting into it so she no longer feels swindled. What a great attitude to have about an entire industry and one's own willingness to learn. Regardless of her wealth, I'm not cool with people taking advantage of Kickstarter by exploiting children, people with different lifestyles and serious social issues. Her Twitter campaigning illustrates her intentions even further. An honest campaign would have been much more driven by the child. When I was this girl's age, I would have pounced at the chance to show people the nerdy stuff I was doing so I could prove how badly I wanted to go to a game dev summer camp, especially because I was a girl. If my mom put this together, I would have been embarrassed and ashamed. Do away with the weird over-produced secret agent PowerPoint template of a presentation and ridiculous TLDR written by the mother. Do away with the weird marketing materials (a beer koozie that says "I drink like a girl, keep up!"?). Like any other gaming Kickstarter, I want to know more about what I can expect from this game rather than vague bullet-list promises to be "unlike other games", especially when the original cost was only going to cover 5 days of development. The girl has an entire diary of game ideas she could help sell herself with, but instead of substance I get to read trying-to-be-funny commentary not at all written by a 9-year-old. Caine's Arcade (http://vimeo.com/40000072 http://vimeo.com/40000072) comes to mind as a much better way to tell the story of a child's passion through their eyes.
- niggler 14y ago
  Lemme give a counterpoint: What if the lesson here were to teach how to raise money? What if it were to go through the actual process of building a game (which includes far more than just writing the game)? Instead of looking at it as a scam, this is a mother who is trying to teach her daughter some valuable life lessons that I wish I learned when I was young (I'm male, but that's beside the point). To put it in terms more germane to technology, she has a brilliant pitch (appealing to gender issues), really good reward items (lots of people get burned by underpricing those) and a really modest goal (even if she doesn't finish the game, everyone chipping money into the kickstarter feels good)
infoman 14y ago
they have spent more than 1000$ to pay for the video and want less than 1000$ funding. clearly marketing for mothers business

73 points by jmount 14y ago

The only thing that -really- bothers me about this kickstarter is that people kept donating after it had passed its goal by such a ridiculous amount. I can understand it ending at a few hundred dollars more than they asked, but 20x the original asking amount? Really? It's as if the people donating don't really care that donating more money may complicate things - they just want to donate so they can get their daily "I'm such a nice person" high. I can't help but wonder whether or not this controversy would have even happened if the donators had stopped at the target amount of 800 dollars.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

supbeta 14y ago

oh my...

jmount 14y ago

Just in case my title gets de-editorialized. I submitted this as 'Fraud: Millionaire using Kickstarter "girl controversy" to raise money.' (did have to edit out some typos on my part) The kickstarter isn't raising money for camp (as you might guess), but for single rich individual. I am all for more funding to support young girls in computing. I would just like to see it applied to those that would not receive such benefits without additional help. I am not for "shaming" in general, but I feel exposure is the only way to try to set this right. And this is ongoing, Susan Wilson has not withdrawn the Kickstarter which has collected over $22,000 to send a rich girl to summer camp.

EliRivers 14y ago
So is your problem that the money is going towards a training course, or is your problem that she could have raised the money some other way? Where is the fraud, by the way? What is she lying about? Are the people who are choosing to give their money to this being totally fooled and they think their money will be spent on something completely different?
- mnicole 14y ago
  I'd read the course was already paid for before the mom started the Kickstarter, and in their TOS it says you can't use it for "fund-my-life" and charity purposes.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    As I read the front page, it looks like a small amount (deposit?) has been paid and 1098 dollars are left to pay. I'm going purely on information on the front page; the rest of it is comments and people's private investigations and all sorts of other stuff with, frankly, as much weight as the front page itself. I suspect a great deal of people's upset is caused by the fact that her mother could afford it. I've got no personal issue with people raising funds however they can. Other people's opinions differ, of course. I don't consider a training course necessary to create the product "fund my life", but again other people do. Presumably they'd be happy with a mountain of textbooks and some expensive hardware (although some of them complain that she intends to also buy a laptop, brilliantly on the grounds that it's a common item in their particular social environment, which presumably means that it's something they had to buy with their own money so why should she get one for free).
- jmount 14y ago
  My problem is rich people soliciting donations for their selves (under the sneaky implication they are somebody who needs this). As to Fraud from the Kickstarter: "My goal is to raise $829 to cover the cost of RPG Camp." The fraud is the implication the girl needs the money and won't get to go if we don't fund it. Or any implication this will help other girls than this one. Additional fraud is the Kickstarter is being run by a minor who can't enter into contracts, set up Amazon/Paypall accounts and so on. I guess it isn't fraud if you have enough after the fact apologists.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    Is it still fraud if you announce it in big letters on the front page? If there is no deception involved? "My problem is rich people soliciting donations for their selves (under the sneaky implication they are somebody who needs this)." Are you by chance a citizen of a major first world country? If so, have you tried to do anything about this already? Major industries constantly take subsidies and kickbacks and all the rest of it that they don't need, with the money being funnelled to wealthy people. Have you written to your representative to ask about this? If not, maybe you could start there rather than here.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I think this Kickatarter says more about Susan Wilson than it does about Kickstarter.
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  Somehow I am not surprised that her day job is running a debt collection company.
rmrfrmrf 14y ago
If you had a problem with the Kickstarter, why didn't you take it up with the person who started it? Since we're all supposedly against public shaming, I only think it's right that we DDoS your employer's network until they fire you.
ricardobeat 14y ago
Why would you guess it's raising money for camp whe the title is "9 Year Old Building an RPG to Prove Her Brothers Wrong!"? I'm raising $829 to cover the cost of attending this RPG STEM Camp for kids I think it's pretty clear. They could put the extra funds towards some kind of charity though.
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  There's the TOS violations: "fund my life" - buying her daughter a laptop (camp provides IT resources" "fund tuition" - educational camp, pretty self-explanatory And then the rest of the tastelessness - I'm fairly certain a nine year old isn't at all involved in beer cozies saying "I drink like a girl, keep up!" etc.

jessaustin 14y ago

If Kickstarter doesn't stop this sort of thing, it will soon be overrun with this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily against soliciting charity for those who may not deserve it (after all that would mean I'm against most non-profits in the USA), and there may be a sustainable business model for it somewhere else, but if this becomes "a thing" it will detract from the point of Kickstarter.

EliRivers 14y ago

Conversation already running here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427771 and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5425235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5425235 and probably elsewhere as well.

jmount 14y ago
I submitted it in good faith. I didn't see it and I didn't try to alter URLs. And I don't want or need the Karma. I don't think it is getting enough attention, so I am trying to help. Now that I have checked. The others submissions really didn't point out the kickstarter wasn't benefitting anyone but one rich girl. $20,000 for many girls would be a good cause, but this is very much not.
olalonde 14y ago
Out of curiosity, are you in any way affiliated with this Kickstarter? Your comment history shows 10 comments on the topic so far, mostly siding with the mother.
- corin_ 14y ago
  If your opinion was on the side of the mother wouldn't you find yourself commenting quite a few times given the bombard of comments on the other side, without the need for a hidden agenda?
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    Given the comments made, GP has a valid question.
- EliRivers 14y ago
  If I was with Kickstarter, I'd simply tell you the official position and none of these threads would have happened. I certainly wouldn't be engaged in this kind of back and forth when we'd have a company policy on it and probably someone whose job is to monitor and manage this kind of public discussion.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

DividesByZero 14y ago

Strong argument for a 'maximum' cap on kickstarter funding.

georgemcbay 14y ago
How would it be decided, though? By the person posting the Kickstarter? Despite claiming to be about raising less than $1,000 this Kickstarter allotted up to 5 rewards for $10,000 donations -- so I'm going to guess in this case they wouldn't have voluntarily put a sane cap on this.
- petercooper 14y ago
  It could be a multiple of the original amount, perhaps. That is, at a 2x multiple, say, an attempt at raising $800 could go no further than $1600.
  - eridius 14y ago
    Terrible idea. That would have severely impacted all of the high-profile projects to date. Whoa, HN double-posted my comment. Never seen that happen before.
    - petercooper 14y ago
      The thing is, the big heavily funded projects I can recall all got to that stage by essentially selling something (the OUYA stands out in this regard). And Kickstarter now seem to be making the point that it's not about selling stuff but just raising enough to produce something you can sell separately later. So while I don't actually agree with my own idea, it would seem to fit with the new line of thinking over there IMHO. (Happens to me every now and then, but the software is smart enough to [dead] the dupes, somehow.)
      - eridius 14y ago
        Sure, they sold something. This is the first "high-profile" (whereby that I mean I'm actually seeing it on HN or some other aggregator that I read) Kickstarter I've seen that isn't really about the actual thing being created. That said, backers are actually getting a copy of the game, plus other perks, just like any other video game kickstarter. The only reason there's any controversy seems to be the fact that the mother in question could presumably have afforded to do this without the kickstarter. But as others have said, just because she could have afforded to do this another way doesn't make the kickstarter somehow wrong. (And yeah, HN did [dead] the dupe, which I then deleted, I've just never had this happen before).

torya 14y ago

i just contacted kickstarter via email. i hope they take down this cheating fraud bitch. she has a lot of nerve to be so blatantly stealing other people's hard earned money.

EliRivers 14y ago
Is it still theft if you tell them in advance what you want it for and they choose to give it to you? Our judicial system says no, but your opinion is considered valid too!
- torya 14y ago
  A thief is a thief, it doesn't matter if she pimps out her kids to Johns on the internet willing to pay the cash for a fuck. As long as she takes the money she is guilty, and human trash too.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    Perhaps you don't know what theft is. Theft is taking something that belongs to someone else (without permission) with the intent of keeping it. She is not taking anything. People are choosing to give her money. She's not (obviously) defrauding anyone either; she explained what the money is going towards. Maybe it is all a scam and she doesn't exist and it's going on coke n' hookers, but you don't know that any more than I do. You, however, don't like this, and you don't like that people are choosing to give her some money, but you are unable to express yourself clearly. All you have is your pathetic rage and your inability to explain what you don't like about the situation. Does it make you feel like a big man? Are you going to start issuing death threats now? You're safe to do that; this is your new throwaway account, yes? So you can let you inner rage out without losing any of your precious social approval.
    - torya 14y ago
      What about those people who invest money in an unknown ponzi scheme? Bernard Madoff stole billions yet the victims gave to him willingly.

smoyer 14y ago

Most millionaires become rich by keeping as much of their income as they can ... I guess it's easier if you're willing to give up a good reputation in the process. When I read the KS campaign, I thought it was a bit weird that the mom was obviously doing the writing, but I hadn't researched Susan Wilson at all. Maybe she was really just trying to show her daughter how to reach for her dreams but she'll have to be careful with the extra money or she'll teach her the wrong things. I'd suggest using the extra money to send needy kids to the computer camp.

citricsquid 14y ago

Just skimmed the article and kickstarter page so maybe this is addressed already: (speculation) surely this isn't about the money, it's about publicity for the game camp? They don't need the money if her profile is to be believed (although the amount of supposed millionaires around that are dirt poor means it's plausible she isn't rich). She probably has some connection with the game camp. Edit: actually I want to revise that statement, on looking through her website links I think it's more likely this is advertising for her, she's trying to build a brand. I assume she'll go a long way off the back off "next on USA Today, the crowd-sourcing mom!" or something. She's got her own female entrepreneur thing at fundher.com. Maybe that's it.

jmount 14y ago
Then why don't they collect money for the camp instead of for themselves?
tdicola 14y ago
That sounds pretty plausible. Make a great example of crowd funding for Moms, then turn around and pump your crowd funding business.

rmc 14y ago

Can't really see the fraud here.

infoman 14y ago

report abuse now: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w/report/new http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-b...

infoman 14y ago
I don't know if it is alright but i made a new news item of this with a clear call to action and hope we can take this project off kickstarter. let's get it done, hack0rs
- infoman 14y ago
  Save Kickstarter from scam - report this fake sexist project (kickstarter.com)

flippyhead 14y ago

If it's the mom saying "hey look kid you need to earn your way in this life, but if you really want to go to this camp, one thing you could try is kickstarter" then that's great! I had plenty of super wealthy friends growing up and the ones that tended to be of solid character had parents that led them in such ways. Why does a parent having a ton of money necessarily mean the approach advocated for the child to take/learn should be different than for less wealthy parents? Though I do agree kickstarter ought to disallow this sort of thing regardless.

keiferski 14y ago

I don't get it. Is it fraud because she already has enough money to pay for it, but opted to use Kickstarter instead? How is that fraud? Is every millionaire startup founder who raises capital a fraud as well?

jmount 14y ago
I think most people think they are donating to somebody who needs it or to a camp itself. Not to a single person. I presume that is how they got $22,000 in commitments for a $900 fee. That is the fraud. And the "it isn't fraud because it was written the kickstarter was pointless." That just makes it a particular type of fraud.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  What made you arrive to that conclusion? The kickstarter text makes it clear it's going towards this girl's camp fees and a laptop.
itafroma 14y ago
I think there's a fair bit of double standards here. Here's a short, by-no-means-exhaustive list of well received, wildly successful Kickstarter campaigns started by multi-millionaires who could've easily offered the funding themselves: * Double Fine Adventure (Tim Schaefer): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-a... * Yogventures (the Yogscast): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventu... * Veronica Mars Project (Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-mars-movie-project?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-m... * Wasteland 2 (inXile Entertainment, run by Brian Fargo): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2 * Torment (2nd Kickstarter run by inXile Entertainment, before even fulfilling Wasteland 2): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-... * Project Eternity (Obsidian Entertainment, a AAA games company, run by Chris Jones): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity?ref=most-funded http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternit... * Project Godus (22 Cans, run by Peter Molyneux): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus?ref=live http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus?ref... Why a nine-year-old girl and her ostensibly well-to-do mother get called out as "fraud" but not everyone else is something I don't really understand.

Metapony 14y ago

There are so many girls whose parents aren't millionaires who need our help that I am a little shocked that so many people were misled in backing this. I think Susan Wilson's comments on the kickstarter are a fine example of shooting yourself in the foot. It's actually a little funny to see the comments go from very positive at first to negative as more and more concerns are raised. It's She's clearly exploiting her children and the goodwill of the community. I'll be very surprised if Kickstarter doesn't put a stop to this very quickly.

torya 14y ago
some women would do anything for money.
- Metapony 14y ago
  Now I didn't, and wouldn't, say that. (That's a rather rude thing to say.) I do think that Susan Wilson probably doesn't need the money. But more importantly, I think this kickstarter (and however much notoriety it generates) is more what Susan Wilson is after here. It's almost finely crafted to be controversial, just at an edge of what is acceptable, and will be something she can cite for the next decade in interviews. It's clear that this particular woman doesn't need the money, but the fame she generates in exploiting her child is priceless. edit: for clarity
- mst 14y ago
  Yes, indeed, some people will do anything for money. And, believe it or not, women are people too!

pud 14y ago

I don't think this is fraud. Looks to me like a mom & daughter made something together and put it on the internet. I live in an affluent part of San Francisco (Noe Valley) and last week saw lots of rich moms selling girl scout cookies with their daughters, mom doing all the "work." Is that fraud? Also, nowhere do I see anything in the article (or the CNN article it links to) about the mom's finances. Just because you have a business does not mean you're rich -- it often means the contrary.

jmount 14y ago
A non-fraud would have promised excess collected to other children and causes.
- zethraeus 14y ago
  Perhaps the proper appropriation of the raised money is a better thing to petition for than the campaign's banning?
rgbrenner 14y ago
"last week saw lots of rich moms selling girl scout cookies with their daughters, mom doing all the "work." Is that fraud?" Good strawman. Of course, girl scout money goes to the Girl Scouts, and not the parents or the kids. Whereas, the money collected from this kickstarter goes into Mom's pocket. So they aren't really he same at all. Of course you knew that.
- pud 14y ago
  The moms told me that about 20% goes to the Girl Scouts and the troop keeps 80%.
  - rgbrenner 14y ago
    The local Girl Scout troop. ie: a local branch of the Girl Scouts. That changes absolutely nothing about my criticism of your post.
14y ago

SODaniel 14y ago

Fraud? No. Distasteful, dishonest, stupid and incredibly callous? Yes.

rogueSkib 14y ago

Older siblings tend to give little siblings a hard time in general, regardless of their gender. This is most definitely a publicity stunt at Kickstarter's expense. Millionaire's begging others to fund their child's camp is not something you see every day, and it most certainly doesn't belong on Kickstarter.

tomasien 14y ago

I don't think this is fraud, but I'm not sure it's currently allowed on Kickstarter. The problem is, this is "$829 so I can go to camp", not funding the game itself. So normally the excess money is explicitly for continuing to develop whatever is being funded, but in this instance that may be LIKELY but it's not explicit. However, having a bunch of money and being able to afford something without Kickstarter is meaningless in this equation. The fact that the mom is a wealthy person has 0 pertinence.

waterlesscloud 14y ago
The pitch copy explicitly says the money over the goal will go to extending her time at camp, up to the length of the entire summer. I don't know how much that would cost, but I think we're probably past that now, and I don't see any indication what the rest will go towards. I've wished in the past that Kickstarter required some sort of open accounting for projects funded through them. But in practice I don't know how that would work. There's no effective leverage outside of setting that as a standard. If someone didn't, nothing could be done other than community pressure.

infoman 14y ago

vote this up ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433664

niggler 14y ago

For those wondering if kickstarter will do anything about this: It's pretty clear that kickstarter is happy with getting the 5% cut, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more of this in the future.

illuminate 14y ago
Yup. Just as eBay doesn't care about shill bidders that bid up the price, Kickstarter doesn't ~really~ care about their users getting scammed through violations of their TOS as long as they make their cut.

downandout 14y ago

This is not fraud. If the basis of the campaign were that her family is just too poor to send her, that would be fraud. But that is clearly not in there. As far as whether she needs it or not, many kids with rich parents don't get to enjoy that money. Some rich parents are just downright cheap and selfish, and others want to teach their kids the value of a dollar. My guess is that the daughter asked for the money, and mom wanted to teach her how to go out and get it instead of just asking her. They worked together and created a successful campaign. The people calling this fraud are jealous. They look at their own kickstarter campaigns that aren't nearly as successful and wonder why they haven't been as "lucky". Looks like the mother is successfully teaching her daughter how to make her own luck, and that isn't a bad lesson to learn.

Smudge 14y ago
I agree. The net worth of the mother does not somehow make it more of a fraud than if the family genuinely couldn't afford the tuition. However, from Kickstarter's policies: > Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects. Summer camp tuition (plus a new laptop) are not good enough as a project goal, IMO, and may very well violate Kickstarter's policies.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
FireBeyond 14y ago
"and others want to teach their kids the value of a dollar" In this case, the value of a dollar being "I'll overproduce a PowerPoint, spam some celebrities and women's groups on Twitter, we'll include a few pictures of you being all cute and smiling, and people will just throw money at you!" "They worked together" - BS. Their merchandise includes beer coolers with adult slogans. Their marketing includes spamming of women's rights groups, and celebrities. You don't honestly believe that this was driven by the nine year old, and not her multimillionaire debt collecting mom, who made her initial fortune squatting on kinkos.com, do you?
- downandout 14y ago

inmygarage 14y ago

I am a backer of this project, and after reading this post I am still very happy to be involved. There is so much involved in this project that simply isn't financial. Going through the process of putting up the Kickstarter project creates accountability and motivation for Mackenzie to actually build and finish the game because she now has a group of people cheering her on from the sidelines. To me this is exactly what Kickstarter is about: supporting creative endeavors. The financial aspect of it is secondary...don't you think Kirsten Bell could just bankroll the $2m Veronica Mars movie herself? Probably. But with Kickstarter you get the benefit of a built-in support group, and I am just as happy to support Mackenzie whether she's from a rich or poor family.

jcc80 14y ago
This mom previously tried to raise $20k to make...capes. How much of this $20k+ do you think the 9 yr. old is getting? She's also spamming celebs and women's groups on twitter - http://i.imgur.com/b4l2fI2.png http://i.imgur.com/b4l2fI2.png. I'd be happy to back a child interested in tech but I don't think her daughter made this - http://i.imgur.com/F03oG3e.png http://i.imgur.com/F03oG3e.png.
jessaustin 14y ago
...don't you think Kirsten Bell could just bankroll the $2m Veronica Mars movie herself? Why on earth would anyone think that? It isn't hard to find out what work she's done [0]: on that page, I see a bunch of guest appearances on TV, roles in a few movies I've never heard of, and a starring role on one TV series, to which she was signed when absolutely unknown. (Unknown actors signed to new programs are typically locked in for years of low pay, because they're "lucky to be working at all".) Also she is listed as producer of one minor movie and one planned movie. I certainly hope Ms. Bell has good financial habits, but I don't see how she could have saved $.2M from this body of work, let alone $2M, especially while living in Hollywood. [0] http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068338/ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068338/
FireBeyond 14y ago
"Going through the process of putting up the Kickstarter project creates accountability and motivation for Mackenzie to actually build and finish the game because she now has a group of people cheering her on from the sidelines." Guess you missed the part that originally, there was absolutely no mention of a game or result in the rewards - that was only added after the tornado touched down.

jcc80 14y ago

Brilliant way to capitalize on recent news by this mom. Smart lady. Her daughter will be thrilled when she finds out enough money was raised for her to attend the camp. As for the rest of the money...

Smudge 14y ago

It's not fraud simply because the mother is a millionaire. But it's probably against Kickstarter's policies nonetheless: > Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects. I suppose one could construe summer camp tuition as "training" and the new laptop she'll be getting (see "Where is the money going" section) as equipment costs. But that's really not what is happening.

rogueSkib 14y ago

This reddit post sums up everything wrong with this, quotes the broken KS rules, and links to evidence: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/c91g8yn http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th...

olalonde 14y ago

This comment on Reddit is quite interesting: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_that_kickstarter_for_the_girl_who/c91g8yn http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th...

SODaniel 14y ago

Why was the title rewritten and the thread effectively killed?

mnicole 14y ago

My opinion is that if this were a more sincere Kickstarter that focused on the child, I'd give it a pass. Instead it reads as a mother's ignorant views on sex and sexuality ironically being used to generate sympathy for gender issues and, ultimately, profit. She even manages to hate on developers by saying "as a businessperson" she feels like she's "at their mercy" instead of taking some responsibility and educating herself before hiring people she feels used by. She says she's glad her daughter's getting into it so she no longer feels swindled. What a great attitude to have about an entire industry and one's own willingness to learn. Regardless of her wealth, I'm not cool with people taking advantage of Kickstarter by exploiting children, people with different lifestyles and serious social issues. Her Twitter campaigning illustrates her intentions even further. An honest campaign would have been much more driven by the child. When I was this girl's age, I would have pounced at the chance to show people the nerdy stuff I was doing so I could prove how badly I wanted to go to a game dev summer camp, especially because I was a girl. If my mom put this together, I would have been embarrassed and ashamed. Do away with the weird over-produced secret agent PowerPoint template of a presentation and ridiculous TLDR written by the mother. Do away with the weird marketing materials (a beer koozie that says "I drink like a girl, keep up!"?). Like any other gaming Kickstarter, I want to know more about what I can expect from this game rather than vague bullet-list promises to be "unlike other games", especially when the original cost was only going to cover 5 days of development. The girl has an entire diary of game ideas she could help sell herself with, but instead of substance I get to read trying-to-be-funny commentary not at all written by a 9-year-old. Caine's Arcade (http://vimeo.com/40000072 http://vimeo.com/40000072) comes to mind as a much better way to tell the story of a child's passion through their eyes.

niggler 14y ago
Lemme give a counterpoint: What if the lesson here were to teach how to raise money? What if it were to go through the actual process of building a game (which includes far more than just writing the game)? Instead of looking at it as a scam, this is a mother who is trying to teach her daughter some valuable life lessons that I wish I learned when I was young (I'm male, but that's beside the point). To put it in terms more germane to technology, she has a brilliant pitch (appealing to gender issues), really good reward items (lots of people get burned by underpricing those) and a really modest goal (even if she doesn't finish the game, everyone chipping money into the kickstarter feels good)

infoman 14y ago

they have spent more than 1000$ to pay for the video and want less than 1000$ funding. clearly marketing for mothers business