8 ms·

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hi

by osteele 14y ago

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

JDGM 14y ago
"If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable." This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!". There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal. Everything you have said on the Internet, ever, "could lead to dismissal". It's a risky world. You just gotta make the best decision you can at each point in time.
  - JDGM 14y ago
    Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".
    - mayanksinghal 14y ago
      For one, I don't think I deserve to be hanged even once. I believe I cannot even be convicted for even minor crimes. Following the law has its benefits, not worrying (about being caught), is a significant one for me.
      - JDGM 14y ago
        I hear you, but with respect think you have misconstrued the quotation. Montaigne is saying that the law is so wide and so complex that without knowing it we are constantly committing crimes, for which no fair judge would try us and for which we will never be punished, but nonetheless we are committing. He exaggerates for effect both in the extent of the crimes and the extent of the punishment but, as a complement to the idea that an employer (if you will, a potentially "unfair judge") can extend their checks from criminal activity to all online activity and in so doing legitimately dismiss an employee, it seems an appropriate "polite" reply to my comment's parent.
michaelochurch 14y ago
If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed? There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks either way. and then they aren't referenceable. At 1 month, you just omit it. At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue and he'll probably be your ally. If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed. In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into, but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen, unless he really hates you.
- acjohnson55 14y ago
  Extortion? You're just full of great advice, now aren't you? Lying on your application and extorting people risks torching an already damaged reputation, not to mention potentially huge civil and even criminal liabilities. To the OP, I recommend ditching the Machiavellian stuff. The best bet in my opinion is to network and contribute to projects where possible (such as through OSS, freelance, etc.). If people actually know you and your story and you have a track record with them, the chances of them putting enough trust in you are much greater. I don't think you should leave the CS world. You're going to find the same issues in any line of work, so you might as well stay in the field where your skills lie.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    We're talking about what to do in rare but extremely bad situations where there are literally no good avenues... not what people should do in normal circumstances. "Extortion" was too strong a word. I meant it in the sense of "aggressive negotiation". Demanding a positive reference not to blow something humiliating is not extortion. If you demand money not to blow something, you're breaking the law, because there's no connection between the payoff and the threat (exposure). However, with a reference, it's "we're going to part ways, but it's best for both of us that we tell the same story, so let's get straight about what just happened". That's how you present it. Not really extortion. Your advice to OP has a lot of value and on the whole I agree with what you are telling him to do. OSS contributions are a really good idea for him. However, I still contend that an "odds and evens" mixed strategy will perform better than full disclosure.
tptacek 14y ago
If you deliberately conceal a criminal conviction from an employer who asks, that employer is more than "not referenceable"; they're a company who has fired you for cause. Among other things, they are now another thing you'll have to either disclose or try to conceal from future employers, many of whom will ask whether/from-where you've been fired for cause. In extreme cases, making fraudulent bogus disclosures to employers can be actionable, if for instance your criminal status comes up on a background check for your employer's clients or business partners and damages the relationship. Deliberately lying about this issue seems like an extremely dumb strategy.
- yep_throwaway 14y ago
  I'll agree that it's dumb but, unfortunately, it is sometimes necessary if one wants to eat.
rmc 14y ago
But (and correct this ignorant european), but doesn't at will employment in the USA mean that they could be fired st any point for any or no reason anyway? And that's if they were never convicted of anything, right?
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  At-will employment is very complicated. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/what-is-at-will-employment/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/what-is-at-wi... What you say is essentially correct, but there's enough gray area that companies would not want to fire someone carelessly. Even winning a termination suit is losing, for PR reasons. So most professional jobs give enough severance to move on to your next job, unless it's "for cause", which usually means you did something horrible (but occasionally not). Lying about a felony conviction is "for cause" and he'd get no severance if that was discovered and the reason (or discovered and made the reason after the fact). There is no dispute about that. If a company will hire him in spite of the conviction, it's better to disclose. Most likely, he'll start disclosing it in 10+ years once he has a track record and no one cares. If no one will hire him, however, he might need an alternate strategy.
ra 14y ago
Yes absolutely. I know at least one highly regarded info sec consulting firm has a "reformed computer-hacker" (their words) on staff who will penetration test your systems for a handsome fee. ($30k per system last time I checked). If this is your passion then I would encourage you to apply. Definitely use a cover letter along the lines of the pastebin.

by osteele 14y ago

JDGM 14y ago

"If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable." This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!". There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.

michaelochurch 14y ago
There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal. Everything you have said on the Internet, ever, "could lead to dismissal". It's a risky world. You just gotta make the best decision you can at each point in time.
- JDGM 14y ago
  Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".
  - mayanksinghal 14y ago
    For one, I don't think I deserve to be hanged even once. I believe I cannot even be convicted for even minor crimes. Following the law has its benefits, not worrying (about being caught), is a significant one for me.
    - JDGM 14y ago
      I hear you, but with respect think you have misconstrued the quotation. Montaigne is saying that the law is so wide and so complex that without knowing it we are constantly committing crimes, for which no fair judge would try us and for which we will never be punished, but nonetheless we are committing. He exaggerates for effect both in the extent of the crimes and the extent of the punishment but, as a complement to the idea that an employer (if you will, a potentially "unfair judge") can extend their checks from criminal activity to all online activity and in so doing legitimately dismiss an employee, it seems an appropriate "polite" reply to my comment's parent.

michaelochurch 14y ago

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed? There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks either way. and then they aren't referenceable. At 1 month, you just omit it. At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue and he'll probably be your ally. If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed. In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into, but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen, unless he really hates you.

acjohnson55 14y ago
Extortion? You're just full of great advice, now aren't you? Lying on your application and extorting people risks torching an already damaged reputation, not to mention potentially huge civil and even criminal liabilities. To the OP, I recommend ditching the Machiavellian stuff. The best bet in my opinion is to network and contribute to projects where possible (such as through OSS, freelance, etc.). If people actually know you and your story and you have a track record with them, the chances of them putting enough trust in you are much greater. I don't think you should leave the CS world. You're going to find the same issues in any line of work, so you might as well stay in the field where your skills lie.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  We're talking about what to do in rare but extremely bad situations where there are literally no good avenues... not what people should do in normal circumstances. "Extortion" was too strong a word. I meant it in the sense of "aggressive negotiation". Demanding a positive reference not to blow something humiliating is not extortion. If you demand money not to blow something, you're breaking the law, because there's no connection between the payoff and the threat (exposure). However, with a reference, it's "we're going to part ways, but it's best for both of us that we tell the same story, so let's get straight about what just happened". That's how you present it. Not really extortion. Your advice to OP has a lot of value and on the whole I agree with what you are telling him to do. OSS contributions are a really good idea for him. However, I still contend that an "odds and evens" mixed strategy will perform better than full disclosure.

tptacek 14y ago

If you deliberately conceal a criminal conviction from an employer who asks, that employer is more than "not referenceable"; they're a company who has fired you for cause. Among other things, they are now another thing you'll have to either disclose or try to conceal from future employers, many of whom will ask whether/from-where you've been fired for cause. In extreme cases, making fraudulent bogus disclosures to employers can be actionable, if for instance your criminal status comes up on a background check for your employer's clients or business partners and damages the relationship. Deliberately lying about this issue seems like an extremely dumb strategy.

yep_throwaway 14y ago
I'll agree that it's dumb but, unfortunately, it is sometimes necessary if one wants to eat.

rmc 14y ago

But (and correct this ignorant european), but doesn't at will employment in the USA mean that they could be fired st any point for any or no reason anyway? And that's if they were never convicted of anything, right?

michaelochurch 14y ago
At-will employment is very complicated. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/what-is-at-will-employment/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/what-is-at-wi... What you say is essentially correct, but there's enough gray area that companies would not want to fire someone carelessly. Even winning a termination suit is losing, for PR reasons. So most professional jobs give enough severance to move on to your next job, unless it's "for cause", which usually means you did something horrible (but occasionally not). Lying about a felony conviction is "for cause" and he'd get no severance if that was discovered and the reason (or discovered and made the reason after the fact). There is no dispute about that. If a company will hire him in spite of the conviction, it's better to disclose. Most likely, he'll start disclosing it in 10+ years once he has a track record and no one cares. If no one will hire him, however, he might need an alternate strategy.

ra 14y ago

Yes absolutely. I know at least one highly regarded info sec consulting firm has a "reformed computer-hacker" (their words) on staff who will penetration test your systems for a handsome fee. ($30k per system last time I checked). If this is your passion then I would encourage you to apply. Definitely use a cover letter along the lines of the pastebin.