7 ms·

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someon

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even-numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none. If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting the ones where he omitted (the odds). If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered choices. His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question. There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily measure. So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate. You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps. With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth. Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly speaking, legal".

losvedir 14y ago
That's an interesting story. As a counterpoint, since we're all just dealing in anecdotes here, I had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question"; I was suspended for "hacking", albeit after voluntarily telling my principal about it. I disclosed it on my applications, while my high school did not. I was still accepted to MIT and Stanford. I later learned that MIT actually called my high school to get clarification on it, so I know it was seen at least by them. I was also a finalist for an NSA scholarship program (flown out to the Maryland "friendship annex" for interviewing) despite having disclosed it. So, I dunno what my point is. Maybe these things depend on who reads your application or what, but it's not an automatic dealbreaker, and I do encourage people to be honest.
- devonbarrett 14y ago
  Just a curious thought, if you was applying for a CS course, do you think it could have actually had a positive impact on chances?
  - 0x00_ 14y ago
    Well, to be honest I figured it wouldn't hurt my chances. I've learned more from google and boredom with a heavy dose of frustration than I've ever learned in school. All of my associates in the field do not have to deal with this issue and maintain the perspective that actual experience is more important than education. I've an incredible obstacle to surmount and it matters to me that I have documented training. It's just one-less-thing standing in the way.
  - losvedir 14y ago
    I think it may have helped with the NSA scholarship, but I didn't apply to colleges for CS, so it wouldn't have helped there.
- coopdog 14y ago
  I guess with cracking the intent is crucial. Ie were you just curious and forgot to respect the boundary, or were you in it for personal gain. The first would make good NSA agents once set straight, the second much harder to trust.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
0x00_ 14y ago
Ahh yes. The good ol' hat problem. I never considered remaining silent about it, but most places around here do CORI background checks with the information on CV so It is hard to avoid. Also, a simple google query of my name pulls up quite a few embarrassing news articles. Imagine the fun it was to explain the situation to your spouses parents after they have googled you. Thank you for your response. I will give non-disclosure a shot and see how that works. It feels inappropriate deceptive for me to omit those details when asked (via interview question in person, phone, or form) about them.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  Have you thought about using a different name in business? A friend of mine Anglicized his and it fixed a reputation problem. For most people, that'd be a loss. You'd lose your whole reputation. It sounds to me like your reputation is of negative value, given the Google problem. Keep in mind also that Googling happens before interview, and background checks happen after a successful interview. So even if the name-change won't get you around a formal check (by some stable identifier like SSN) you can at least control the time of disclosure. The ugly thing about being Googled is that you don't know when or if it happens. Name change gets you the interview and then, if you're pretty sure they'll find it in a more thorough check, you can disclose it on your terms.
  - gte910h 14y ago
    You're often not allowed to change your name for this sort of reason.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Really you can change your name for whatever reason you want, and there isn't even a process. You just start introducing yourself as that new name. Of course you have to be careful which name you use on which form (legal name goes on the I-9, chosen name goes on the resume, occasionally you get the opportunity to fill out the 'other aliases' field, etc), but otherwise there is zero hassle and so long as there is not an intent to defraud, you are in the clear. Almost every member of my immediate family has casually done this at least once with no problem (it's kind of a family tradition it seems..). The name on my credit cards, the name I am known by professionally, and the name my parents know me by are all different. They share similar derivation yes, if you know one of them you probably would not bat an eye when another came up, but they are absolutely sufficiently different to isolate online reputations.
osteele 14y ago
If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).
- JDGM 14y ago
  "If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable." This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!". There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal. Everything you have said on the Internet, ever, "could lead to dismissal". It's a risky world. You just gotta make the best decision you can at each point in time.
    - JDGM 14y ago
      Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".
cm2012 14y ago
This is the best answer I have ever seen to a question like this. It's articulate and carefully explains the steps leading up to an evidence based conclusion. I've rarely felt more that something is "Insightful".
yep_throwaway 14y ago
Government jobs are, obviously, not going to be an option.
loumf 14y ago
You do not have to rely on an application process when looking for a job. This isn't just advice for people who think they have a challenging story -- it goes for everyone. There are hundreds of stupid ways you get filtered out. There are examples of far worse felons than the OP who are employed in CS. Find a way to tell the story honestly and in a way that shows that you learned from it. (1) Become a top performer in college by working hard (2) Make public works (3) Build a network Do that and you won't need to run an application test.

losvedir 14y ago

That's an interesting story. As a counterpoint, since we're all just dealing in anecdotes here, I had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question"; I was suspended for "hacking", albeit after voluntarily telling my principal about it. I disclosed it on my applications, while my high school did not. I was still accepted to MIT and Stanford. I later learned that MIT actually called my high school to get clarification on it, so I know it was seen at least by them. I was also a finalist for an NSA scholarship program (flown out to the Maryland "friendship annex" for interviewing) despite having disclosed it. So, I dunno what my point is. Maybe these things depend on who reads your application or what, but it's not an automatic dealbreaker, and I do encourage people to be honest.

devonbarrett 14y ago
Just a curious thought, if you was applying for a CS course, do you think it could have actually had a positive impact on chances?
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  Well, to be honest I figured it wouldn't hurt my chances. I've learned more from google and boredom with a heavy dose of frustration than I've ever learned in school. All of my associates in the field do not have to deal with this issue and maintain the perspective that actual experience is more important than education. I've an incredible obstacle to surmount and it matters to me that I have documented training. It's just one-less-thing standing in the way.
- losvedir 14y ago
  I think it may have helped with the NSA scholarship, but I didn't apply to colleges for CS, so it wouldn't have helped there.
coopdog 14y ago
I guess with cracking the intent is crucial. Ie were you just curious and forgot to respect the boundary, or were you in it for personal gain. The first would make good NSA agents once set straight, the second much harder to trust.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

0x00_ 14y ago

Ahh yes. The good ol' hat problem. I never considered remaining silent about it, but most places around here do CORI background checks with the information on CV so It is hard to avoid. Also, a simple google query of my name pulls up quite a few embarrassing news articles. Imagine the fun it was to explain the situation to your spouses parents after they have googled you. Thank you for your response. I will give non-disclosure a shot and see how that works. It feels inappropriate deceptive for me to omit those details when asked (via interview question in person, phone, or form) about them.

michaelochurch 14y ago
Have you thought about using a different name in business? A friend of mine Anglicized his and it fixed a reputation problem. For most people, that'd be a loss. You'd lose your whole reputation. It sounds to me like your reputation is of negative value, given the Google problem. Keep in mind also that Googling happens before interview, and background checks happen after a successful interview. So even if the name-change won't get you around a formal check (by some stable identifier like SSN) you can at least control the time of disclosure. The ugly thing about being Googled is that you don't know when or if it happens. Name change gets you the interview and then, if you're pretty sure they'll find it in a more thorough check, you can disclose it on your terms.
- gte910h 14y ago
  You're often not allowed to change your name for this sort of reason.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Really you can change your name for whatever reason you want, and there isn't even a process. You just start introducing yourself as that new name. Of course you have to be careful which name you use on which form (legal name goes on the I-9, chosen name goes on the resume, occasionally you get the opportunity to fill out the 'other aliases' field, etc), but otherwise there is zero hassle and so long as there is not an intent to defraud, you are in the clear. Almost every member of my immediate family has casually done this at least once with no problem (it's kind of a family tradition it seems..). The name on my credit cards, the name I am known by professionally, and the name my parents know me by are all different. They share similar derivation yes, if you know one of them you probably would not bat an eye when another came up, but they are absolutely sufficiently different to isolate online reputations.

osteele 14y ago

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

JDGM 14y ago
"If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable." This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!". There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal. Everything you have said on the Internet, ever, "could lead to dismissal". It's a risky world. You just gotta make the best decision you can at each point in time.
  - JDGM 14y ago
    Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".

cm2012 14y ago

This is the best answer I have ever seen to a question like this. It's articulate and carefully explains the steps leading up to an evidence based conclusion. I've rarely felt more that something is "Insightful".

yep_throwaway 14y ago

Government jobs are, obviously, not going to be an option.

loumf 14y ago

You do not have to rely on an application process when looking for a job. This isn't just advice for people who think they have a challenging story -- it goes for everyone. There are hundreds of stupid ways you get filtered out. There are examples of far worse felons than the OP who are employed in CS. Find a way to tell the story honestly and in a way that shows that you learned from it. (1) Become a top performer in college by working hard (2) Make public works (3) Build a network Do that and you won't need to run an application test.