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Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

153 points by 0x00_ 14y ago

First time posting here. Had to use pastebin because I wrote beyond 2k char limit. Apologies for the annoyance of an extra-step. Please read and respond. Thanks.

matt_heimer 14y ago
Any other career choice you will probably be worse off. At least in the CS world you might be able to spin it as a positive if you specialize in security. Freelance work is also an option. Assuming you are trying to get a degree to be more employable, the places that require a degree are also likely to avoid hiring you. The degree does show some measure of reform so places that hire on merit will probably like that you have a degree. Background checks are really cheap. I've worked at really small companies that outsource most of HR and payroll to a larger company. Those places always do the background checks, don't think that smaller places won't do a background check. If you lie and they ever find out that's an instant firing.
michaelochurch 14y ago
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even-numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none. If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting the ones where he omitted (the odds). If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered choices. His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question. There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily measure. So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate. You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps. With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth. Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly speaking, legal".
- losvedir 14y ago
  That's an interesting story. As a counterpoint, since we're all just dealing in anecdotes here, I had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question"; I was suspended for "hacking", albeit after voluntarily telling my principal about it. I disclosed it on my applications, while my high school did not. I was still accepted to MIT and Stanford. I later learned that MIT actually called my high school to get clarification on it, so I know it was seen at least by them. I was also a finalist for an NSA scholarship program (flown out to the Maryland "friendship annex" for interviewing) despite having disclosed it. So, I dunno what my point is. Maybe these things depend on who reads your application or what, but it's not an automatic dealbreaker, and I do encourage people to be honest.
  - devonbarrett 14y ago
    Just a curious thought, if you was applying for a CS course, do you think it could have actually had a positive impact on chances?
    - 0x00_ 14y ago
      Well, to be honest I figured it wouldn't hurt my chances. I've learned more from google and boredom with a heavy dose of frustration than I've ever learned in school. All of my associates in the field do not have to deal with this issue and maintain the perspective that actual experience is more important than education. I've an incredible obstacle to surmount and it matters to me that I have documented training. It's just one-less-thing standing in the way.
    - losvedir 14y ago
      I think it may have helped with the NSA scholarship, but I didn't apply to colleges for CS, so it wouldn't have helped there.
  - coopdog 14y ago
    I guess with cracking the intent is crucial. Ie were you just curious and forgot to respect the boundary, or were you in it for personal gain. The first would make good NSA agents once set straight, the second much harder to trust.
joshmlewis 14y ago
Have you tried security related companies?
- rietta 14y ago
  Kevin Mitnick seems to be doing well with http://mitnicksecurity.com http://mitnicksecurity.com. Granted his celebrity hacker status may contribute to that success, but it goes to show that a Felony conviction is by no means an impenetrable barrier to creating a consultancy or working for one.
  - joshmlewis 14y ago
    Yeah that's what I was getting at.
auctiontheory 14y ago
Now, more than ever, you don't need to work for someone else (as an employee). If you have the skills, you can do very well as a freelancer/consultant. The pay can be good, the work can be interesting, and they won't run a background check on you.
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  I have tried this approach and it has failed me. The biggest problem with being independent is landing clients who are in need of the service. I have also tried shotgun approach via private vulnerability disclosure. At best it typically results in nothing more than 'thanks' -- but most frequent is outright ignoring, angry response, bruised egos, threats with law enforcement, and general unpleasantry. -- so I've learned to avoid doing that.
  - rwhitman 14y ago
    Put a way to contact you on your HN profile. You are on the frontpage and will probably get a few leads. Don't waste the opportunity to score freelance clients out of your post...
    - 0x00_ 14y ago
      Oh? The front page? Whoo hoo! (is that hard here? it's hard on reddit) I've gone ahead done that just-in-case. I am not really here looking for active leads (though I certainly wouldn't throw away an opportunity if it presented itself as a result of this posting), but some of these responses have been really uplifting. I am really here pinging this community for people that have been in or have dealt with the circumstances of my disposition who would like to take a moment and give some pointers. So far the response has been better than I had anticipated.
      - rwhitman 14y ago
        Pretty hard yea, especially with an "Ask HN" post
- 14y ago
avar 14y ago
Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job. Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U.S.. It might be nice to have a fresh start somewhere else, but I don't know what sort of visa troubles you'd have with your record.
- auctiontheory 14y ago
  The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google consensus, anyway.)
  - crucialfelix 14y ago
    this is not true. its discretionary but only in the case of drug traffickers is it strictly forbidden.
  - sethrin 14y ago
    The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you: Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan Are behind on child support payments Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court Were subject to a previous denial or revocation Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country, especially if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate. [1] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3335.html http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/... [2] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3379.html#0-0-0-709 http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...
    - 14y ago
akkartik 14y ago
I've been at several startups and never undergone a background check, to my knowledge. I've never been asked any "Have you ever..?" questions. So this is less of an issue than you might think. I get the sense companies only start doing background checks when they grow large enough to become targets for litigation.
- rocky1138 14y ago
  Or when you're applying at a place without having a good friend that works there who can vouch for you/friends with the CEO, etc. Networking gets past almost any trouble, where trouble is defined as the sort of thing that shouldn't stop you from getting hired but does.
eli 14y ago
If you apply to any company small enough to not have a dedicated HR department, I think there's a very good chance that it literally never comes up. Arrest record certainly isn't part of my standard interview questions. (And, in my biased opinion, working at smaller companies is a lot more fun anyway--especially for someone early in their career)
rietta 14y ago
To the OP, it would seem reasonable to inquire with an attorney about petitioning to have the conviction set aside. I am not a lawyer, but it seems that a restoration of rights via means of an expungement or even a Presidential pardon would be avenues likely open for you.
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  Thanks rietta. Unfortunately presidential pardons are difficult to get without help from a political connection. Based on the data (http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm) in addition to the cumulative experience of those who have turned their lives around for decades and still been denied, I made a decision to try that later when I have a better history to present in my petition. As you can see, the odds are scary. My chances of getting one without a friend in government (or part of a lobbying body) are really slim.
rdouble 14y ago
I've found that most smaller companies do not do any sort of background check on their potential employees.
throwaway420 14y ago
* Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation. * Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.
- mpclark 14y ago
  Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.
frostmatthew 14y ago
Perhaps you should consider applying for positions where the skills that got you in trouble would be an asset, i.e. penetration testing, security research/consulting
- felonyquestions 14y ago
  I found that this field has changed significantly in the past 15 years. I got my first job through getting caught hacking in high school. But today, there are so many more applicants who are qualified, and they are coming right out of college, that the pool is large enough where the government can enforce restrictions.
latimer 14y ago
This is going to sound a little cliche, but try not to get discouraged by the rejections. After graduating from college I applied to over 100 companies and ended up getting a measly 4 interviews, but one of them did get me a job offer. It doesn't matter if all of the others reject you, it just takes one offer to get you a job.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
Robert Morris had a similar background (Computer Fraud) and he still got to be YC co-founder. So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.
- OGC 14y ago
  > founder is the key word here > So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful. that is worthless advice
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    What's wrong with being founder?
    - OGC 14y ago
      Nothing, that was my point. For OP it would make a lot of sense to found a company / consult / etc instead of working _for_ a company, to get around his felony. The part with "worthless advice" was about the whole "oh, also be successful and happy" thing.
      - guard-of-terra 14y ago
        "be successful and happy" is a useful advice because there is an option of "struggle really hard but you will make it". But it's not, IT/programming has no downsides, just dive into it and it's awesome.
jaysonelliot 14y ago
While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that doesn't need to be the end of the story. For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical skill. Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appreciate your talent and skill, and might even enjoy hearing some of the stories you've undoubtedly amassed. Don't go for a job where you have to hide (or worse, lie about) your past. You'll be looking over your shoulder and stressed out, when you should be enjoying your work and finding fulfillment.
- taligent 14y ago
  While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their business.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    Anything in the financial sector will get you fingerprinted and at least a cursory FBI records check.
    - jaysonelliot 14y ago
      Quite true. I worked for large digital agencies for much of my career until now, and while we may or may not do our own background checks (I don't know since I was not in HR), I've had a number of clients in the financial sector over the years. If I had been unable to pass a background check with a client, it would have been detrimental to my position at the agency, to say the least.
      - 0x00_ 14y ago
        Unfortunately true. I've encountered that problem where I am now and have had to sign so many agreements with legal dept heads from other agencies that I've lost count. My employer (work in NPO sector) has really assumed some really huge risks by having my on board. The approach for me being exposed to certain at-risk data (at my work there are ssn from clients, login credentials to affiliated networks ran by my state) is routinely addressed by sign NDA as a group of lawyers threaten to destroy me if anything should go awry. The director of the agency where I work has been tremendously instrumental in arguing and supporting me in these instances.
rgrieselhuber 14y ago
Just my opinion but I don't think this would be a deal breaker at many startups and might even be a little badass.
- justizin 14y ago
  Correct.
- kabdib 14y ago
  Indeed; smaller companies are willing to overlook stuff like this if they think you're good. You'll find a lot less nonsense on small teams.
justizin 14y ago
Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas. I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were younger than we did. Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay. I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.
  - felonyquestions 14y ago
    I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any development work suit you?
    - 0x00_ 14y ago
      Depends on language and the type of work. Shoot me an email?
      - jeltz 14y ago
        He posted his address above in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433215
      - matt_heimer 14y ago
        Really? You are worried about having to switch majors because you might not be employable and yet you want to be picky? If it is a language you don't know then tell them you'll freakin learn it just for the job!
eof 14y ago
The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own. It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something profitable. Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are in most cases if you are selling them SaaS
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  You have a fabulous username. Penn-testing today is growing into something it wasn't when I was having fun. The community consists of mixed talent and a trend is growing as more ease-of-use [e.g: nessus, metasploit] tools become available to infosec "pros". That emergent trend (SaaS?) disgusts and repels me because it eliminates one of the more captivating and rewarding elements of vulnerability hunting (the delicious, delicious, research experience). Reverse engineers, devs who are able create on-the-fly solutions, and vx community notwithstanding. Also, as said in a previous post: my experiences with independent private disclosure is most often a futile waste of time - 'thanks' || ignored || threatened with LE. WRT building an income generating product: I don't have many unique ideas or any marketing experience. I'm currently working with a friend exploring android os internals and platform development. We're going to throw our project into that market and see how it pans out. I generally only create things I need to try out an idea or get something done. This project strays away from that principle so it will be interesting to see whether or not the venture is fruitful.
niggler 14y ago
Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see that job as vouching for your progress. "the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time" At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal credibility, and a degree won't do that for you. If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)
felonyquestions 14y ago
Hi, I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ). College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree. Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter. You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way. * And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".
- niggler 14y ago
  "* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions." You should provide your email address.
  - felonyquestions 14y ago
    Attention to detail has never been my strong suite ;) felonyquestions@hush.ai Sign up anonymously, I'm certianly hiding behind this account as well.
- alt2319 14y ago
  I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise. They never did a background check. Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been working hard. I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store, nobody even needs to knows your name. You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job openings. I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references as well. I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find any press coverage of my conviction. Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even remembering it.
sycren 14y ago
Why not consider forming a startup rather than finding a job?
rwhitman 14y ago
Freelance. Been freelancing for close to 13 years and no one has done a background check on me ever. I'm not an ex-con, but if I was one I doubt any of my clients would ever know or care.
Nutella4 14y ago
One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of stagnant and it is depressing." Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services. That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  This is one of my favorite responses. Thanks.
tonywebster 14y ago
I've worked for several startups in the Bay Area, and only one did anything resembling a background check. Although they wouldn't have found anything, I think something bad in my past I'm long removed from wouldn't have been a barrier. Most small company and startup jobs are founded on relationships rather than forms and policies, which is the way it should be. If your personality, character, ambition, shared vision, portfolio or code samples, work history, or profile in the developer / startup community is well-known, I think your conviction not only wouldn't be insurmountable, I don't even think it would be a blip on the radar. If it ever was, it might even make you cool with the right founders/team. That said, when the company you're working for gets big, you will have already likely signed something giving them blanket permission to look into you, and during an investor or acquirer's due diligence, I guess it's possible it could come up... which would suck if it's right before an equity cliff or something. Another idea: I've also done 1099 contract work for big health insurance companies as a contract developer. Salaried employees had multiple background and credit checks because they were working with HIPAA Protected Health Information... so was I, but I not only made more money than the salaried employees, I didn't do an application, interview, background check, etc. I think 95% of it is your attitude going in. In your head, you're probably thinking that felony convictions are the only thing on the potential employer's mind, so you're self-conscious about it. Find the right type of employer, concentrate on the relationship and the opportunity together, and it shouldn't be a concern at all. (IANAL, TINLA)
rdl 14y ago
I'd look for jobs in academia, non-profits, or startups, where the conviction itself won't be as much of a bar. I'd personally go with startups -- for most roles at most startups it won't be an outright disqualification. Most startups are too stupid/lazy/rushed to do a background check anyway, but if you get caught later, it's worse than if you disclosed it up front, in many cases (haha MIT admissions director who lied on her resume...) The worst would be low-skill jobs involving trust (e.g. bank teller); the easiest would be high skill jobs involving no trust (game developer or working on open source software). Sysadmin is in the middle. Security positions require more trust, but would also tend to be more forgiving of computer crimes background. In the long run, for a federal crime, your best bet is a Presidential pardon (not as hard after you've served time, I think, with a long period of productive work experience since then); that's one thing that sucks about fed vs. state crime. If the law itself is challenged later, that could be a route too. (IANAL.)
polemic 14y ago
Consider looking for positions at computer security companies. It's an entirely respectable field with a... "training dilemma". Good pay, in need of developers, pragmatic about the background of people who end up in the field. A lot (most? all?) of security professionals start out at least on the grey side of hacking.
deleted 14y ago
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orf 14y ago
Become a penetration tester. Do what you loved doing for a job, and without the legal implications.
ebbv 14y ago
After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another career. That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons: - Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you. - If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been fired anywhere I've worked. - Unless I knew you really well personally (as in friends for multiple years), I wouldn't hire you, based purely on your past. It's nothing personal, you might be a great, smart person. But it's a matter of the odds; your past makes you a risk that's not worth taking unless I know you well enough to be certain that you would never do anything like that again, and there's just no way you're going to convince me of that through an interview process. The last one is the real sticking point, because I know what it's like to be a young kid on BBSes and the internet and wanting to try to break things, etc. But even with that understanding, I still wouldn't trust you unless I knew you really well. And that's why I'd recommend pursuing another career. And you should think about this carefully because being a convicted felon (and I'm assuming it was a felony charge) will stop you from being able to do a lot of other careers. Honestly I'd do some research on careers for people with felony convictions.
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  Thank you for your response. After reading many of the other responses it is nice to have this perspective here for other posters to see -- because it is very real to me. This is essentially what someone like me encounters every time they try. It's a really unfortunate part of my reality and other posters should understand that it's not simply "just a felony" -- not when equally qualified applicants do not have any "issues" like this.
  - ebbv 14y ago
    You're welcome. Internet advice is rarely very good, for a multitude of reasons. FWIW, I feel bad for you and wish you the best.
    - 0x00_ 14y ago
      Aweee, don't feel bad for me. NBD. People like me are really good at not failing. I'm measuring with this thread before I make a decision to do something. Internet advice as a collective unit of measurement is still useful and valuable. It is a sin to ignore useful information. Every little bit helps ;) I've also found it incredibly difficult to ask google this type of complex question. So I posted it here instead.
jborden13 14y ago
I would hire you at my company for the following reason: - Your ravenous intellectual curiosity. Sure it got you into trouble, but there aren't enough people with a hunger to learn and tackle challenges. I would not hire you if I didn't believe - You were truly remorseful - You wouldn't get bored in a straight gig and become a liability to the company I believe that you can use history as a good predictor of future behavior, but a mistake someone made 10 years ago as a youth should be past the statute of limitations. Let me know if I can help...
a_p 14y ago
One of the unfair things about the U.S justice system is that not all felonies are created equal. In Virgina, if you are pulled over for driving over 80 miles per hour (even if you are on a steep hill with no one around you or if everyone else is traveling faster than you) you are charged with reckless driving, which is can be a felony or a Class 1 misdemeanor — the same category as Assault & Battery. You will recieve a $3000 dollar fine, and could be convicted of a felony if you don't hire an expensive lawyer , and/or if the judge is in a bad mood that day.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  There are sections of I-15 where the speed limit is 80MPH. Does Virginia have any such high-limit stretches, such that going 1-5 over is a felony, or is it too densely populated?
  - a_p 14y ago
    In the past few years Virginia has passed laws raising the speed limit to 70 mph on some highways. [1] You would have to be traveling at least 11 m.p.h over the speed limit in order to be convicted of reckless driving. It might seem that it is easy to avoid going this fast, but there are several reasons that you might. It is harder to feel a 10 m.p.h gap when you are traveling at high speeds, especially when the roadway is filled with insane drivers that are tailgating you and cutting you off because you are driving too slowly for their taste. Virginia also has some steep hills, which makes it easy to go to over 80 m.p.h without pressing on the accelerator. Many people also speed unconsciously when they feel stressed or angry, are listening to fast music or an exciting radio broadcast. [1] http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870
    - nitrogen 14y ago
      Depending on time of day and tail winds, I've seen dense traffic in my area that would put hundreds of vehicles above 80. It seems too low a limit for reckless driving in modern cars that can handle much higher.
thatthatis 14y ago
Start your own freelance firm. There's a lot of work for freelancers and outside of the fortune 500 very little background checking of the contractors.
anarchotroll 14y ago
Is there something that prevents you from starting your own company?
curiousfiddler 14y ago
I have another idea. Either you can go on fighting the rejections and slowly building a brand for yourself when your past will no longer matter (I can't comment on whether your current situation is indeed that bad), or you could try graduate school. From what it sounds, you seem to be interested not just in programming, but the more abstract principles and reasoning required in designing software systems. Graduate school can help you channelize that interest and who knows, you might make a name for your self in academia. You will need some money for that though, but I personally consider that investment worth the potential experience that you can get at graduate school. More valuable than buying a fancy car.
smoyer 14y ago
You've created an eloquent plea for advice on how to answer the question, and I guess my answer is that you need to be that eloquent when explaining why you want a particular job. There is something in your favor ... none of the good jobs (i.e. the ones you want) are going to be filled by people that only fill out the job application. My last three jobs included me filling the job application out (for the HR drones to say it was complete) after the interviews were done and a hiring agreement was reached. So my advice is to network, push your way into the minds and hearts of the employers you'd like to work for, then let them hire you. Make sure the person making the hiring decision hears this story and assure them it's ancient history. When you finally get around to filling out the job application, be honest and when you get to the conviction question, don't check either box. If it's a paper form, write "see attachment" and affix a copy of the letter you just posted. For an on-line application, ask to meet with HR instead of filling out the on-line form. In both cases, let HR know that the hiring manager knows the details of the story and is unconcerned. So the bigger question is where do you live (or where would you like to live?)... you can start building your network on HN today!
joonix 14y ago
People with convictions have become lawyers. I personally know of one who was a successful lawyer and then tried his hand at cocaine smuggling. Got caught in a sting, served time. Lost his license. Came back and went down a hard road to get licensed again, but he did it. You can pull it off.
chestnut-tree 14y ago
If you are looking for employment with a company, you will face difficulties (as you describe in your post). Is self-employment an option for you? The web is one of the most democratic professions. Produce something people want to use and they (mostly) won't care about your background. In fact you can see it here on Hacker News. People post personal or professional projects, few people care about the academic qualifications or otherwise of the posters. You seem conscientious and determined, so don't lose those qualities. Whatever you decide, good luck :-)
losethos 14y ago
Surrender Secret Service. You will lose if you fight God. God says... projected Death hypertext happened resolutely comparison preacher bad remorse breaking I_donno natural South_Korea recounts garlands pleasures entering whence pleased conversation transferred infection you_never_know prayed public corresponded loses remembereth gold tempted plenary increasing recite reason looked nurses Ecuador foolish unbending sores Senators sigheth
losethos 14y ago
I love it. Brit-nigger in denial on God. God says... really heal Ecuador WARRANTIES confusions admitted Example knowingly embalmed sayings Human reclaim commit spokest enquiry necessarily You_know Faithful Project's failure_is_not_an_option voyage explanatory censured benefit constellations awesome judgest lowering attended architects aught lawyers
walshemj 14y ago
The questions some one needs to ask is how old was the OP when he was convicted (where they a minor) and does the USA have an equivalent to the rehabilitation of offenders act?
csense 14y ago
This is actually a problem with how US society works. It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that? The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the population becomes more and more searchable, this sort of relaxation is inevitable. But social change takes time.
- yep_throwaway 14y ago
  As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the way that you do. Thank you.
- clicks 14y ago
  Sadly, the opposite will happen. There's fierce competition for a lot of jobs and a pool of job seekers full to the brim, criminal records are becoming just another qualifier employers conveniently use for filtering purposes.
yep_throwaway 14y ago
I typed out my (very long) story, then ended up deleting it. Let me offer some advice, however: When you fill out applications and are asked "the question", lie. As someone who has very strong ethics and morals, it's hard for me to say that. It is, however, absolutely necessary if you wish to work again. Eventually, however, somebody will probably find out and you need to be prepared to deal with that. The first time it happened to me, I was fortunate in that I had a great working/professional relationship with my superiors a few levels "up the ladder" (very large company). When they found out, they called me in and confronted me about it. I told them the absolute truth and also explained why I lied about it. They sent me home, mulled it over for about a week, then called me and told me to come back to work. It was never mentioned again. The next time it happened, I was offered a job at a company after one short interview. When I filled out the paperwork, I lied, of course. It wasn't very long before they found out about it (and this was a MUCH smaller company). The two owners, however, knew that I was friends with the Mayor, who they were also friends with. They asked the Mayor about whether they should keep me and his response was something to the effect of "I would, he's a helluva lot smarter than any of your other guys". (It probably also helped that my boss is pretty shady anyways). * With regard to Google search results, take control of that shit. Start a blog, write awesome shit, post videos on YouTube, participate in mailing lists/forums, etc. Spread your name everywhere you can so that when you are Googled, it's your own stuff that comes up. If you Google me, you'll get tired of clicking "Next Page" long before you find anything negative. Basically, lie on the paperwork. If you're honest, they're not even going to give you a chance. If you at least get "in the door", work harder than anyone else. Volunteer to work on things nobody else wants to and do the absolute best that you can at everything. Eventually, they WILL find out. Be prepared for that day. Good luck, it's not easy. -- 15-year convicted felon
acangiano 14y ago
I think starting your own company is your best option if you have a previous conviction.
mildavw 14y ago
We hired a guy who had recently finished 7 years in the clink. After he got out he was freelancing in a shared office space. Worked with other devs there whom we hired or knew. They vouched for him. He's a great dev, good friend, recently finished a PhD while working full time for us. We'd have been stupid not to hire him for the mistake he made a decade ago. Don't hide your record. Network and you get work.
georgemcbay 14y ago
Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily searchable these days. I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet. FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of "freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway) who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.
largesse 14y ago
I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.
- yep_throwaway 14y ago
  IANAL but I've got some "experience" in the legal area. A felony is a crime that is punishable by incarceration of more than one year. It doesn't matter if you were given one day in jail -- if the crime you are convicted of could have resulted in you being given one year and one day, it is a felony.
- mattsfrey 14y ago
  A misdemeanor is an offense that can yield no more than a year in jail and requires only a conviction by trial. A felony is considered a "high crime" and is defined as an offense that can yield more than a year of prison time. Felonies require an indictment (basically a preliminary jury hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial), and then a conviction by trial. Felonies generally are much nastier records wise, require more time before they can be sealed or expunged (depending on state law) if they can be at all. They exclude you from certain rights such as gun ownership, voting, holding public office etc automatically. The system is fairly skewed and crimes are often made felonies in a reactionary context, i.e. some trivial computer crimes can yield felonies while cracking another mans skull under the right circumstances may only yield a misdemeanor assault charge after plea bargaining.
mschuster91 14y ago
Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low-level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one gives a about convictions when hiring a web designer. It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).
- 0x00_ 14y ago
  I don't really enjoy taking the time to make things look pretty. I'm not very good at that part of the design process and it takes too long for me (imho) to produce some aesthetic that will never really be functional outside the scope of organization. I have done it when I've needed money though. Just aggravates me.
  - mschuster91 14y ago
    Get a theme from Themeforest, customize it a bit and you're done. Quick money to grab.
Armslong 14y ago
The purpose of putting someone in jail is REHABILITATION. That's right, all caps. The moment someone is released from jail, the legal system sees that person as having a high probability of being rehabilitated (true, not always the case, but that's the fault of the US legal system), otherwise he/she would have not been released. Unfortunately nowadays a big percentage of the population in the US is mentally challenged blood-lusting self-righteous fanatics. So you self-righteous "rockstar" developers that have been posting bullcrap in this thread, you can go fork yourselves. As for the OP, you will have no trouble finding a job. Don't make it public unless explicitly asked, and say no more than necessary. Good luck!!
orangethirty 14y ago
I'd say start doing contracting. Given market demands you will get land a contract quickly. Some contracts end up being fu time jobs without benefits. So it might play out better for you. You could also do security work. God knows that there is always work on that market.
justanother 14y ago
I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth), this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for you.
downandout 14y ago
You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions, and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.
dimitar 14y ago
How about emigrating? Check the conditions in different countries. Here often companies don't do background checks and to rent an apartment you only need to shake hands with the owner.
whiddershins 14y ago
I would hire that dude. Why not.
whiddershins 14y ago
I would say, take the same mixture of creativity and willful persistence that led you to crack systems and apply that to getting a job you are happy with. That combination of character traits will destroy most obstacles in time.

153 points by 0x00_ 14y ago

First time posting here. Had to use pastebin because I wrote beyond 2k char limit. Apologies for the annoyance of an extra-step. Please read and respond. Thanks.

matt_heimer 14y ago

Any other career choice you will probably be worse off. At least in the CS world you might be able to spin it as a positive if you specialize in security. Freelance work is also an option. Assuming you are trying to get a degree to be more employable, the places that require a degree are also likely to avoid hiring you. The degree does show some measure of reform so places that hire on merit will probably like that you have a degree. Background checks are really cheap. I've worked at really small companies that outsource most of HR and payroll to a larger company. Those places always do the background checks, don't think that smaller places won't do a background check. If you lie and they ever find out that's an instant firing.

michaelochurch 14y ago

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even-numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none. If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting the ones where he omitted (the odds). If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered choices. His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question. There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily measure. So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate. You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps. With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth. Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly speaking, legal".

losvedir 14y ago
That's an interesting story. As a counterpoint, since we're all just dealing in anecdotes here, I had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question"; I was suspended for "hacking", albeit after voluntarily telling my principal about it. I disclosed it on my applications, while my high school did not. I was still accepted to MIT and Stanford. I later learned that MIT actually called my high school to get clarification on it, so I know it was seen at least by them. I was also a finalist for an NSA scholarship program (flown out to the Maryland "friendship annex" for interviewing) despite having disclosed it. So, I dunno what my point is. Maybe these things depend on who reads your application or what, but it's not an automatic dealbreaker, and I do encourage people to be honest.
- devonbarrett 14y ago
  Just a curious thought, if you was applying for a CS course, do you think it could have actually had a positive impact on chances?
  - 0x00_ 14y ago
    Well, to be honest I figured it wouldn't hurt my chances. I've learned more from google and boredom with a heavy dose of frustration than I've ever learned in school. All of my associates in the field do not have to deal with this issue and maintain the perspective that actual experience is more important than education. I've an incredible obstacle to surmount and it matters to me that I have documented training. It's just one-less-thing standing in the way.
  - losvedir 14y ago
    I think it may have helped with the NSA scholarship, but I didn't apply to colleges for CS, so it wouldn't have helped there.
- coopdog 14y ago
  I guess with cracking the intent is crucial. Ie were you just curious and forgot to respect the boundary, or were you in it for personal gain. The first would make good NSA agents once set straight, the second much harder to trust.

joshmlewis 14y ago

Have you tried security related companies?

rietta 14y ago
Kevin Mitnick seems to be doing well with http://mitnicksecurity.com http://mitnicksecurity.com. Granted his celebrity hacker status may contribute to that success, but it goes to show that a Felony conviction is by no means an impenetrable barrier to creating a consultancy or working for one.
- joshmlewis 14y ago
  Yeah that's what I was getting at.

auctiontheory 14y ago

Now, more than ever, you don't need to work for someone else (as an employee). If you have the skills, you can do very well as a freelancer/consultant. The pay can be good, the work can be interesting, and they won't run a background check on you.

0x00_ 14y ago
I have tried this approach and it has failed me. The biggest problem with being independent is landing clients who are in need of the service. I have also tried shotgun approach via private vulnerability disclosure. At best it typically results in nothing more than 'thanks' -- but most frequent is outright ignoring, angry response, bruised egos, threats with law enforcement, and general unpleasantry. -- so I've learned to avoid doing that.
- rwhitman 14y ago
  Put a way to contact you on your HN profile. You are on the frontpage and will probably get a few leads. Don't waste the opportunity to score freelance clients out of your post...
  - 0x00_ 14y ago
    Oh? The front page? Whoo hoo! (is that hard here? it's hard on reddit) I've gone ahead done that just-in-case. I am not really here looking for active leads (though I certainly wouldn't throw away an opportunity if it presented itself as a result of this posting), but some of these responses have been really uplifting. I am really here pinging this community for people that have been in or have dealt with the circumstances of my disposition who would like to take a moment and give some pointers. So far the response has been better than I had anticipated.
    - rwhitman 14y ago
      Pretty hard yea, especially with an "Ask HN" post
14y ago

avar 14y ago

Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job. Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U.S.. It might be nice to have a fresh start somewhere else, but I don't know what sort of visa troubles you'd have with your record.

auctiontheory 14y ago
The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google consensus, anyway.)
- crucialfelix 14y ago
  this is not true. its discretionary but only in the case of drug traffickers is it strictly forbidden.
- sethrin 14y ago
  The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you: Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan Are behind on child support payments Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court Were subject to a previous denial or revocation Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country, especially if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate. [1] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3335.html http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/... [2] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3379.html#0-0-0-709 http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...
  - 14y ago

akkartik 14y ago

I've been at several startups and never undergone a background check, to my knowledge. I've never been asked any "Have you ever..?" questions. So this is less of an issue than you might think. I get the sense companies only start doing background checks when they grow large enough to become targets for litigation.

rocky1138 14y ago
Or when you're applying at a place without having a good friend that works there who can vouch for you/friends with the CEO, etc. Networking gets past almost any trouble, where trouble is defined as the sort of thing that shouldn't stop you from getting hired but does.

eli 14y ago

If you apply to any company small enough to not have a dedicated HR department, I think there's a very good chance that it literally never comes up. Arrest record certainly isn't part of my standard interview questions. (And, in my biased opinion, working at smaller companies is a lot more fun anyway--especially for someone early in their career)

rietta 14y ago

To the OP, it would seem reasonable to inquire with an attorney about petitioning to have the conviction set aside. I am not a lawyer, but it seems that a restoration of rights via means of an expungement or even a Presidential pardon would be avenues likely open for you.

0x00_ 14y ago
Thanks rietta. Unfortunately presidential pardons are difficult to get without help from a political connection. Based on the data (http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm) in addition to the cumulative experience of those who have turned their lives around for decades and still been denied, I made a decision to try that later when I have a better history to present in my petition. As you can see, the odds are scary. My chances of getting one without a friend in government (or part of a lobbying body) are really slim.

rdouble 14y ago

I've found that most smaller companies do not do any sort of background check on their potential employees.

throwaway420 14y ago

* Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation. * Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.

mpclark 14y ago
Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.

frostmatthew 14y ago

Perhaps you should consider applying for positions where the skills that got you in trouble would be an asset, i.e. penetration testing, security research/consulting

felonyquestions 14y ago
I found that this field has changed significantly in the past 15 years. I got my first job through getting caught hacking in high school. But today, there are so many more applicants who are qualified, and they are coming right out of college, that the pool is large enough where the government can enforce restrictions.

latimer 14y ago

This is going to sound a little cliche, but try not to get discouraged by the rejections. After graduating from college I applied to over 100 companies and ended up getting a measly 4 interviews, but one of them did get me a job offer. It doesn't matter if all of the others reject you, it just takes one offer to get you a job.

guard-of-terra 14y ago

Robert Morris had a similar background (Computer Fraud) and he still got to be YC co-founder. So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.

OGC 14y ago
> founder is the key word here > So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful. that is worthless advice
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  What's wrong with being founder?
  - OGC 14y ago
    Nothing, that was my point. For OP it would make a lot of sense to found a company / consult / etc instead of working _for_ a company, to get around his felony. The part with "worthless advice" was about the whole "oh, also be successful and happy" thing.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      "be successful and happy" is a useful advice because there is an option of "struggle really hard but you will make it". But it's not, IT/programming has no downsides, just dive into it and it's awesome.

jaysonelliot 14y ago

While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that doesn't need to be the end of the story. For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical skill. Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appreciate your talent and skill, and might even enjoy hearing some of the stories you've undoubtedly amassed. Don't go for a job where you have to hide (or worse, lie about) your past. You'll be looking over your shoulder and stressed out, when you should be enjoying your work and finding fulfillment.

taligent 14y ago
While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their business.
- ams6110 14y ago
  Anything in the financial sector will get you fingerprinted and at least a cursory FBI records check.
  - jaysonelliot 14y ago
    Quite true. I worked for large digital agencies for much of my career until now, and while we may or may not do our own background checks (I don't know since I was not in HR), I've had a number of clients in the financial sector over the years. If I had been unable to pass a background check with a client, it would have been detrimental to my position at the agency, to say the least.
    - 0x00_ 14y ago
      Unfortunately true. I've encountered that problem where I am now and have had to sign so many agreements with legal dept heads from other agencies that I've lost count. My employer (work in NPO sector) has really assumed some really huge risks by having my on board. The approach for me being exposed to certain at-risk data (at my work there are ssn from clients, login credentials to affiliated networks ran by my state) is routinely addressed by sign NDA as a group of lawyers threaten to destroy me if anything should go awry. The director of the agency where I work has been tremendously instrumental in arguing and supporting me in these instances.

rgrieselhuber 14y ago

Just my opinion but I don't think this would be a deal breaker at many startups and might even be a little badass.

justizin 14y ago
Correct.
kabdib 14y ago
Indeed; smaller companies are willing to overlook stuff like this if they think you're good. You'll find a lot less nonsense on small teams.

justizin 14y ago

Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas. I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were younger than we did. Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!

0x00_ 14y ago
I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay. I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.
- felonyquestions 14y ago
  I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any development work suit you?
  - 0x00_ 14y ago
    Depends on language and the type of work. Shoot me an email?
    - jeltz 14y ago
      He posted his address above in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433215
    - matt_heimer 14y ago
      Really? You are worried about having to switch majors because you might not be employable and yet you want to be picky? If it is a language you don't know then tell them you'll freakin learn it just for the job!

eof 14y ago

The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own. It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something profitable. Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are in most cases if you are selling them SaaS

0x00_ 14y ago
You have a fabulous username. Penn-testing today is growing into something it wasn't when I was having fun. The community consists of mixed talent and a trend is growing as more ease-of-use [e.g: nessus, metasploit] tools become available to infosec "pros". That emergent trend (SaaS?) disgusts and repels me because it eliminates one of the more captivating and rewarding elements of vulnerability hunting (the delicious, delicious, research experience). Reverse engineers, devs who are able create on-the-fly solutions, and vx community notwithstanding. Also, as said in a previous post: my experiences with independent private disclosure is most often a futile waste of time - 'thanks' || ignored || threatened with LE. WRT building an income generating product: I don't have many unique ideas or any marketing experience. I'm currently working with a friend exploring android os internals and platform development. We're going to throw our project into that market and see how it pans out. I generally only create things I need to try out an idea or get something done. This project strays away from that principle so it will be interesting to see whether or not the venture is fruitful.

niggler 14y ago

Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see that job as vouching for your progress. "the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time" At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal credibility, and a degree won't do that for you. If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)

felonyquestions 14y ago

Hi, I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ). College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree. Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter. You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way. * And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".

niggler 14y ago
"* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions." You should provide your email address.
- felonyquestions 14y ago
  Attention to detail has never been my strong suite ;) felonyquestions@hush.ai Sign up anonymously, I'm certianly hiding behind this account as well.
alt2319 14y ago
I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise. They never did a background check. Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been working hard. I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store, nobody even needs to knows your name. You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job openings. I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references as well. I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find any press coverage of my conviction. Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even remembering it.

sycren 14y ago

Why not consider forming a startup rather than finding a job?

rwhitman 14y ago

Freelance. Been freelancing for close to 13 years and no one has done a background check on me ever. I'm not an ex-con, but if I was one I doubt any of my clients would ever know or care.

Nutella4 14y ago

One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of stagnant and it is depressing." Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services. That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!

0x00_ 14y ago
This is one of my favorite responses. Thanks.

tonywebster 14y ago

I've worked for several startups in the Bay Area, and only one did anything resembling a background check. Although they wouldn't have found anything, I think something bad in my past I'm long removed from wouldn't have been a barrier. Most small company and startup jobs are founded on relationships rather than forms and policies, which is the way it should be. If your personality, character, ambition, shared vision, portfolio or code samples, work history, or profile in the developer / startup community is well-known, I think your conviction not only wouldn't be insurmountable, I don't even think it would be a blip on the radar. If it ever was, it might even make you cool with the right founders/team. That said, when the company you're working for gets big, you will have already likely signed something giving them blanket permission to look into you, and during an investor or acquirer's due diligence, I guess it's possible it could come up... which would suck if it's right before an equity cliff or something. Another idea: I've also done 1099 contract work for big health insurance companies as a contract developer. Salaried employees had multiple background and credit checks because they were working with HIPAA Protected Health Information... so was I, but I not only made more money than the salaried employees, I didn't do an application, interview, background check, etc. I think 95% of it is your attitude going in. In your head, you're probably thinking that felony convictions are the only thing on the potential employer's mind, so you're self-conscious about it. Find the right type of employer, concentrate on the relationship and the opportunity together, and it shouldn't be a concern at all. (IANAL, TINLA)

rdl 14y ago

I'd look for jobs in academia, non-profits, or startups, where the conviction itself won't be as much of a bar. I'd personally go with startups -- for most roles at most startups it won't be an outright disqualification. Most startups are too stupid/lazy/rushed to do a background check anyway, but if you get caught later, it's worse than if you disclosed it up front, in many cases (haha MIT admissions director who lied on her resume...) The worst would be low-skill jobs involving trust (e.g. bank teller); the easiest would be high skill jobs involving no trust (game developer or working on open source software). Sysadmin is in the middle. Security positions require more trust, but would also tend to be more forgiving of computer crimes background. In the long run, for a federal crime, your best bet is a Presidential pardon (not as hard after you've served time, I think, with a long period of productive work experience since then); that's one thing that sucks about fed vs. state crime. If the law itself is challenged later, that could be a route too. (IANAL.)

polemic 14y ago

Consider looking for positions at computer security companies. It's an entirely respectable field with a... "training dilemma". Good pay, in need of developers, pragmatic about the background of people who end up in the field. A lot (most? all?) of security professionals start out at least on the grey side of hacking.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

orf 14y ago

Become a penetration tester. Do what you loved doing for a job, and without the legal implications.

ebbv 14y ago

After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another career. That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons: - Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you. - If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been fired anywhere I've worked. - Unless I knew you really well personally (as in friends for multiple years), I wouldn't hire you, based purely on your past. It's nothing personal, you might be a great, smart person. But it's a matter of the odds; your past makes you a risk that's not worth taking unless I know you well enough to be certain that you would never do anything like that again, and there's just no way you're going to convince me of that through an interview process. The last one is the real sticking point, because I know what it's like to be a young kid on BBSes and the internet and wanting to try to break things, etc. But even with that understanding, I still wouldn't trust you unless I knew you really well. And that's why I'd recommend pursuing another career. And you should think about this carefully because being a convicted felon (and I'm assuming it was a felony charge) will stop you from being able to do a lot of other careers. Honestly I'd do some research on careers for people with felony convictions.

0x00_ 14y ago
Thank you for your response. After reading many of the other responses it is nice to have this perspective here for other posters to see -- because it is very real to me. This is essentially what someone like me encounters every time they try. It's a really unfortunate part of my reality and other posters should understand that it's not simply "just a felony" -- not when equally qualified applicants do not have any "issues" like this.
- ebbv 14y ago
  You're welcome. Internet advice is rarely very good, for a multitude of reasons. FWIW, I feel bad for you and wish you the best.
  - 0x00_ 14y ago
    Aweee, don't feel bad for me. NBD. People like me are really good at not failing. I'm measuring with this thread before I make a decision to do something. Internet advice as a collective unit of measurement is still useful and valuable. It is a sin to ignore useful information. Every little bit helps ;) I've also found it incredibly difficult to ask google this type of complex question. So I posted it here instead.

jborden13 14y ago

I would hire you at my company for the following reason: - Your ravenous intellectual curiosity. Sure it got you into trouble, but there aren't enough people with a hunger to learn and tackle challenges. I would not hire you if I didn't believe - You were truly remorseful - You wouldn't get bored in a straight gig and become a liability to the company I believe that you can use history as a good predictor of future behavior, but a mistake someone made 10 years ago as a youth should be past the statute of limitations. Let me know if I can help...

a_p 14y ago

One of the unfair things about the U.S justice system is that not all felonies are created equal. In Virgina, if you are pulled over for driving over 80 miles per hour (even if you are on a steep hill with no one around you or if everyone else is traveling faster than you) you are charged with reckless driving, which is can be a felony or a Class 1 misdemeanor — the same category as Assault & Battery. You will recieve a $3000 dollar fine, and could be convicted of a felony if you don't hire an expensive lawyer , and/or if the judge is in a bad mood that day.

nitrogen 14y ago
There are sections of I-15 where the speed limit is 80MPH. Does Virginia have any such high-limit stretches, such that going 1-5 over is a felony, or is it too densely populated?
- a_p 14y ago
  In the past few years Virginia has passed laws raising the speed limit to 70 mph on some highways. [1] You would have to be traveling at least 11 m.p.h over the speed limit in order to be convicted of reckless driving. It might seem that it is easy to avoid going this fast, but there are several reasons that you might. It is harder to feel a 10 m.p.h gap when you are traveling at high speeds, especially when the roadway is filled with insane drivers that are tailgating you and cutting you off because you are driving too slowly for their taste. Virginia also has some steep hills, which makes it easy to go to over 80 m.p.h without pressing on the accelerator. Many people also speed unconsciously when they feel stressed or angry, are listening to fast music or an exciting radio broadcast. [1] http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    Depending on time of day and tail winds, I've seen dense traffic in my area that would put hundreds of vehicles above 80. It seems too low a limit for reckless driving in modern cars that can handle much higher.

thatthatis 14y ago

Start your own freelance firm. There's a lot of work for freelancers and outside of the fortune 500 very little background checking of the contractors.

anarchotroll 14y ago

Is there something that prevents you from starting your own company?

curiousfiddler 14y ago

I have another idea. Either you can go on fighting the rejections and slowly building a brand for yourself when your past will no longer matter (I can't comment on whether your current situation is indeed that bad), or you could try graduate school. From what it sounds, you seem to be interested not just in programming, but the more abstract principles and reasoning required in designing software systems. Graduate school can help you channelize that interest and who knows, you might make a name for your self in academia. You will need some money for that though, but I personally consider that investment worth the potential experience that you can get at graduate school. More valuable than buying a fancy car.

smoyer 14y ago

You've created an eloquent plea for advice on how to answer the question, and I guess my answer is that you need to be that eloquent when explaining why you want a particular job. There is something in your favor ... none of the good jobs (i.e. the ones you want) are going to be filled by people that only fill out the job application. My last three jobs included me filling the job application out (for the HR drones to say it was complete) after the interviews were done and a hiring agreement was reached. So my advice is to network, push your way into the minds and hearts of the employers you'd like to work for, then let them hire you. Make sure the person making the hiring decision hears this story and assure them it's ancient history. When you finally get around to filling out the job application, be honest and when you get to the conviction question, don't check either box. If it's a paper form, write "see attachment" and affix a copy of the letter you just posted. For an on-line application, ask to meet with HR instead of filling out the on-line form. In both cases, let HR know that the hiring manager knows the details of the story and is unconcerned. So the bigger question is where do you live (or where would you like to live?)... you can start building your network on HN today!

joonix 14y ago

People with convictions have become lawyers. I personally know of one who was a successful lawyer and then tried his hand at cocaine smuggling. Got caught in a sting, served time. Lost his license. Came back and went down a hard road to get licensed again, but he did it. You can pull it off.

chestnut-tree 14y ago

If you are looking for employment with a company, you will face difficulties (as you describe in your post). Is self-employment an option for you? The web is one of the most democratic professions. Produce something people want to use and they (mostly) won't care about your background. In fact you can see it here on Hacker News. People post personal or professional projects, few people care about the academic qualifications or otherwise of the posters. You seem conscientious and determined, so don't lose those qualities. Whatever you decide, good luck :-)

losethos 14y ago

Surrender Secret Service. You will lose if you fight God. God says... projected Death hypertext happened resolutely comparison preacher bad remorse breaking I_donno natural South_Korea recounts garlands pleasures entering whence pleased conversation transferred infection you_never_know prayed public corresponded loses remembereth gold tempted plenary increasing recite reason looked nurses Ecuador foolish unbending sores Senators sigheth

losethos 14y ago

I love it. Brit-nigger in denial on God. God says... really heal Ecuador WARRANTIES confusions admitted Example knowingly embalmed sayings Human reclaim commit spokest enquiry necessarily You_know Faithful Project's failure_is_not_an_option voyage explanatory censured benefit constellations awesome judgest lowering attended architects aught lawyers

walshemj 14y ago

The questions some one needs to ask is how old was the OP when he was convicted (where they a minor) and does the USA have an equivalent to the rehabilitation of offenders act?

csense 14y ago

This is actually a problem with how US society works. It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that? The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the population becomes more and more searchable, this sort of relaxation is inevitable. But social change takes time.

yep_throwaway 14y ago
As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the way that you do. Thank you.
clicks 14y ago
Sadly, the opposite will happen. There's fierce competition for a lot of jobs and a pool of job seekers full to the brim, criminal records are becoming just another qualifier employers conveniently use for filtering purposes.

yep_throwaway 14y ago

I typed out my (very long) story, then ended up deleting it. Let me offer some advice, however: When you fill out applications and are asked "the question", lie. As someone who has very strong ethics and morals, it's hard for me to say that. It is, however, absolutely necessary if you wish to work again. Eventually, however, somebody will probably find out and you need to be prepared to deal with that. The first time it happened to me, I was fortunate in that I had a great working/professional relationship with my superiors a few levels "up the ladder" (very large company). When they found out, they called me in and confronted me about it. I told them the absolute truth and also explained why I lied about it. They sent me home, mulled it over for about a week, then called me and told me to come back to work. It was never mentioned again. The next time it happened, I was offered a job at a company after one short interview. When I filled out the paperwork, I lied, of course. It wasn't very long before they found out about it (and this was a MUCH smaller company). The two owners, however, knew that I was friends with the Mayor, who they were also friends with. They asked the Mayor about whether they should keep me and his response was something to the effect of "I would, he's a helluva lot smarter than any of your other guys". (It probably also helped that my boss is pretty shady anyways). * With regard to Google search results, take control of that shit. Start a blog, write awesome shit, post videos on YouTube, participate in mailing lists/forums, etc. Spread your name everywhere you can so that when you are Googled, it's your own stuff that comes up. If you Google me, you'll get tired of clicking "Next Page" long before you find anything negative. Basically, lie on the paperwork. If you're honest, they're not even going to give you a chance. If you at least get "in the door", work harder than anyone else. Volunteer to work on things nobody else wants to and do the absolute best that you can at everything. Eventually, they WILL find out. Be prepared for that day. Good luck, it's not easy. -- 15-year convicted felon

acangiano 14y ago

I think starting your own company is your best option if you have a previous conviction.

mildavw 14y ago

We hired a guy who had recently finished 7 years in the clink. After he got out he was freelancing in a shared office space. Worked with other devs there whom we hired or knew. They vouched for him. He's a great dev, good friend, recently finished a PhD while working full time for us. We'd have been stupid not to hire him for the mistake he made a decade ago. Don't hide your record. Network and you get work.

georgemcbay 14y ago

Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily searchable these days. I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet. FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of "freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway) who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.

largesse 14y ago

I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.

yep_throwaway 14y ago
IANAL but I've got some "experience" in the legal area. A felony is a crime that is punishable by incarceration of more than one year. It doesn't matter if you were given one day in jail -- if the crime you are convicted of could have resulted in you being given one year and one day, it is a felony.
mattsfrey 14y ago
A misdemeanor is an offense that can yield no more than a year in jail and requires only a conviction by trial. A felony is considered a "high crime" and is defined as an offense that can yield more than a year of prison time. Felonies require an indictment (basically a preliminary jury hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial), and then a conviction by trial. Felonies generally are much nastier records wise, require more time before they can be sealed or expunged (depending on state law) if they can be at all. They exclude you from certain rights such as gun ownership, voting, holding public office etc automatically. The system is fairly skewed and crimes are often made felonies in a reactionary context, i.e. some trivial computer crimes can yield felonies while cracking another mans skull under the right circumstances may only yield a misdemeanor assault charge after plea bargaining.

mschuster91 14y ago

Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low-level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one gives a about convictions when hiring a web designer. It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).

0x00_ 14y ago
I don't really enjoy taking the time to make things look pretty. I'm not very good at that part of the design process and it takes too long for me (imho) to produce some aesthetic that will never really be functional outside the scope of organization. I have done it when I've needed money though. Just aggravates me.
- mschuster91 14y ago
  Get a theme from Themeforest, customize it a bit and you're done. Quick money to grab.

Armslong 14y ago

The purpose of putting someone in jail is REHABILITATION. That's right, all caps. The moment someone is released from jail, the legal system sees that person as having a high probability of being rehabilitated (true, not always the case, but that's the fault of the US legal system), otherwise he/she would have not been released. Unfortunately nowadays a big percentage of the population in the US is mentally challenged blood-lusting self-righteous fanatics. So you self-righteous "rockstar" developers that have been posting bullcrap in this thread, you can go fork yourselves. As for the OP, you will have no trouble finding a job. Don't make it public unless explicitly asked, and say no more than necessary. Good luck!!

orangethirty 14y ago

I'd say start doing contracting. Given market demands you will get land a contract quickly. Some contracts end up being fu time jobs without benefits. So it might play out better for you. You could also do security work. God knows that there is always work on that market.

justanother 14y ago

I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth), this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for you.

downandout 14y ago

You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions, and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.

dimitar 14y ago

How about emigrating? Check the conditions in different countries. Here often companies don't do background checks and to rent an apartment you only need to shake hands with the owner.

whiddershins 14y ago

I would hire that dude. Why not.

whiddershins 14y ago

I would say, take the same mixture of creativity and willful persistence that led you to crack systems and apply that to getting a job you are happy with. That combination of character traits will destroy most obstacles in time.