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A scientific accident that could change the world
- Fargren 14y agoWell, the graphene seems easy enough to manufacture. What are the obstacles to start using this technology right now? What is still missing?
- claudius 14y agoExperience. At least let people experiment a little bit more before building huge fabs using technique A only to realise that technique B works at half the cost and twice the time-efficiency.
- gizmo686 14y agoBut isn't there are huge market advantage to using the technology now, before your competitors do. If you wait until technique B, then you loose out on the first (or early) adopter benefits, and probably lost customers to your competitors that implemented the technology before you. I suspect that the reason we are not seeing this technology in practice yet, is because of how long the design cycles take. I am not familar at all with small device manufacturing, but it seems like it would take a lot of iterations to make everything fit together so tightly, and a year may not be enough time to introduce a different battery system. Especially a battery system that your engineers have no experience with. Having said that, batteries do seem like a pretty stand-alone component of phones, so it may be possible to design a graphine based battery that replace an existing phone battery without modification to the phone. It might involve doing more work in the battery to emulate properties of the traditional battery that the phones were designed to compensate for, but it seems like there is enough room in a battery to do that. The other problem I can see is that standard phones would likely be incapable of charging these batteries at full speed, which would only mean the batteries need a charger external to the phone. Again, not as good compared to designing the phones with these batteries in mind, but still useful. The main problem I can see with pursuing these batteries is that by the time you are ready to sell them, there may not be a long enough window before they become standard for it to be worth your while. Makers of portable phone rechargers may be the compromise to those issues. Regardless, excluding unforeseen drawbacks to this technology, I suspect we will be seeing it within 1 or 2 generations of phone.
- claudius 14y ago> But isn't there are huge market advantage to using the technology now, before your competitors do. If you wait until technique B, then you loose out on the first (or early) adopter benefits, and probably lost customers to your competitors that implemented the technology before you. I am pretty sure every half-decent company has a research team on graphene right now, it is just that they don’t have results yet because results take time and making sure that these results are correct takes even more time. Furthermore, as you said – even if we now managed to build a battery that charges in half a minute, the surrounding infrastructure is not yet there, and especially with components as critical as batteries, you don’t want them to break/blow up at your customer’s place.
- jaredmcateer 14y agoIn my inexpert knowledge I can see a few problems, while they have probably seen potential, they have yet to prove it can scale. Then there is getting manufacturers of devices to buy in to super capacitors and even worse getting battery life obsessed consumers to accept 1/4 the life as current Li Ion batteries is better because it has nearly instantaneous recharge times.
- Fargren 14y agoMaybe you can have both a Li Ion and one of these, and you only sue the LiIon after the graphene one is depleted. That way, you can recharge quickly to a fraction of total power, and optionally wait longer for a full charge.
- jaredmcateer 14y agoMaybe but both are going to take up space and the video isn't really clear on how much space the super-capacitor is going to need so you'll probably end up with the same problem of not having the same long life as just having the single slower charging Li Ion battery.
- gizmo686 14y agoIn my experience, the reason people are obssessed with battery life is that when it runs out (which it does), then you are pretty much screwed until you can plug it in for the night. I think that vendors could easily sell devices with a smaller capacity if they can charge in seconds. This seems like a benefit that is very clear, easy to explain, and understandable to a typical consumer, and it provides a near perfect solution to one of the major inconveniences of current phones. And, that inconvenience happens to be what people currently look to long battery life to mitigate.
- jaredmcateer 14y agoPerhaps, I know I'd rather have a super fast charging phone that lasted a day than one that lasted 3 days and takes a long time to charge, but there are still people out there that seem to think the megapixels are the only thing that's important in a camera.
- CompelTechnic 14y agoI don't believe there is anything "missing" to prevent it from starting up. It simply takes work, time, and money to get it off the ground. I can see this tech being widely used in place of current capacitor technology in a shortish timeframe- maybe 2 to 4 years. It'll also be used in novel technologies as battery replacements, especially for high discharge rate applications, within a similar time scale.
- adestefan 14y agoThere's a lot of work to make sure this is actually a safe thing to use. I know lithium ion batteries are pretty dangerous, but you need to be damn sure this is as safe or safer. How does it hold up to heat, cold, punctures, short circuits, etc? What about degradation over time? Also, there's a lot engineering that needs to happen about how to integrate the proper charging circuits. Plus all the work that needs to go into actual mass manufacturing. In all there's a shit ton of work for any product to actually make it to a mass market.
- frozenport 14y agoElectrons don't like graphene, its like trying to stick electrons onto a hunk of wood - which also has a large capacitance. The real story isn't that graphene has magical properties, its that graphene can be tuned and engineered.
- alexjeffrey 14y agoI'd love to see this technology being incorporated into Tesla's batteries. With super-fast and long lasting charges their cars might become viable in countries where charging stations are either incredibly rare or nonexistent.
- podperson 14y agoCountries with poor infrastructure and handy sources of insanely high wattage power who can afford $50,000 sedans? Which countries would those be?
- alexjeffrey 14y agoI'd hardly equate lack of abundant electric car chargers with poor infrastructure. The example I was thinking of is the UK where I live, where electric cars aren't as common as in SF or the east coast. note, I didn't downvote your comment.
- podperson 14y agoFair enough but the basic point stands - a fast charging facility would be harder to set up than a Tesla "supercharger" (it would, in essence, need to use capacitors to provide the necessary power and would be limited by its available power.
- jimzvz 14y agoWhy specifically tesla and not just electric cars in general?
- gus_massa 14y agoI searched a little, but the information is confusing. The superchargers (apparently) use 90kW/480V=~190A. I want to highlight this: 190A!!! A usual home connection can handle only up to ~10A, so 190A is a lot of current. To handle this you must use very thick wires. To charge faster you need move voltage or handle more current, probably you will need even thicker wires and to be careful with the safety measures. Additionally, this experiment use only in a tiny lab sample. To increase the size and make a big model for a car, a lot of technical details will appear, for example how to handle all the heat that the battery produces during the charge / discharge cycles.
- BenoitEssiambre 14y agoConspicuously missing is any mention of energy density. Who cares about power density. That's juste how fast it can discharge. We don't need capacitors that can discharge faster. All capacitors are already much better than batteries with respect to power. We need capacitors that can store more energy. Capacitors typically suck at that and this article doesn't give any indication that these new ones are better.
- akandiah 14y agoHere's a page which provides a bit more information than the OP: http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/newsroom/more-news/archive/2012/researchers-develop-graphene-supercapacitor-holding-promise-for-portable-electronics http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/newsroom/more-news/archive/2012... And here's a paper on the subject: http://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/laser-scribing-of-high-performance-and-flexible-graphene-based-electrochemical-capacitors.pdf http://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/laser-scribing-of-h...
- BenoitEssiambre 14y agook so here is the only real data I could find. At the end of the paper: "The LSG-EC can exhibit energy densities of up to 1.36 mWh/cm3 , a value that is approximately two times higher than that of the AC-EC" 1.36 mWh/cm3 = 1.36 Wh/L If we assume that 1 L of it weights very roughly 1kg. We get 1.36 Wh/kg. From wikipedia: "The amount of energy stored per unit weight [in ultracapacitors] is generally lower than that of electrochemical batteries (3 to 5 W·h/kg, although 85 W·h/kg has been achieved in the lab[12] as of 2010 compared to 30 to 40 W·h/kg for a lead acid battery, 100 to 250 W·h/kg for a lithium-ion battery and about 0.1% of the volumetric energy density of gasoline." This is still less than 1% of the energy density of lithium ion batteries.
- buster 14y agoThere is a big miscalculation: Graphene seems to be extremely light weight. 1 liter of graphene will definitely not weight 1kg. Wikipedia [1] only gives measures for m²: Graphene is very light, weighing only about 0.77 milligrams per square meter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene
- ratsbane 14y agoAm I the only one to think "hey, I could try this at home?" 1) prepare carbon slurry 2) pour on dvd 3) etch with LightScribe DVD drive... 4) Peel of graphene layer ...? I wonder what, exactly, goes into the carbon slurry and if it's necessary to etch a particular pattern with the LightScribe.
- whitewhim 14y agoAfter reading several papers on this I think that the hardest issue would depositing the GO and electrolytic layers on a CD substrate. Although there are some fairly reliable and not terribly difficult methods I doubt many would have the materials at home. I would love to try this but I'm a poor student. I may see if I can locate some GO onthe chem labs this summer when no ones around.
- TylerE 14y agoIt's graphene, especially tiny bits of it, a bit of a biohazard also? (Think asbestos)
- nl 14y agoI've never heard of any health risks. People seem to handle graphite pencils ok (OTOH, coal dust isn't exactly the best thing in the world for you, but it is hardly asbestos)
- rcamera 14y agoTheir paper [1] show that it is actually quite simple, glue a PET layer to the CD, then deposit graphite oxide solution and let it dry overnight, to then put it in the lightscribe drive. They also explain how the supercapacitor is built with the electrolyte and how to make the electrolyte yourself, the hardest part from what I've read is actually getting graphite oxide. [1] http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6074/1326.abstract http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6074/1326.abstract
- firefoxman1 14y agoI'm right there with you. I've been looking around to see more details on the process. Besides getting ahold of the materials, i think the most difficult part would be taking a graphene sheet and actually making it a supercapacitor. I think it requires layering it between some sort of electrolyte sheets right?
- ergest 14y agoI don't know much about the technology of this, but I used to play with capacitors during my teenage years and if this works even half as advertised it would be truly life altering. We could have "hybrid" solutions of a capacitor combined with a battery with the capacitor acting as a buffer to improve battery life.
- mratzloff 14y agoAgreed, I was thinking that hybrid solutions do seem likely.
- mapt 14y agoHybrid solutions are hypothetically very nice, but as I understand it in reality the large battery banks associated with a gas-tank-like range, and the relatively minor amount of power the motors can actually put out, means that short-term power density isn't actually much of a problem.
- lifeisstillgood 14y agoI really don't want to come across as nit picky but is this one time when changing a linkbait headline to something more descriptive would help - on the iPhone this page did not render thE actual text for a full half hour (subjective) and I spent all that time with my brain whirring but not in gear - it was a little frustrating A headline like "DVD Graphene sheets store charge super fast in lab" would have helped me shift the various articles into my own working memory whilst the page loaded. Downvote with comments please (And I seem to get the general idea that Graphene will be big, but this is unlikely to be the killer app)
- Draco6slayer 14y agoThis is the first time I've seen this argument against linkbait headlines, and I happen to like it a lot. I've never actually considered headlines from a psychological perspective.
- nivla 14y agoI agree with you, the title could have been a little more descriptive. I have seen the same video posted here and on Reddit multiple times in the past few months. Although I don't mind it being posted again, since there is always a group of people who haven't seen it, a descriptive title could have prevented me from getting overly interested about this.
- axelfreeman 14y agoI'm not a scientist. I can't not say anything how this could be a revolution but if you want learn the basics about Graphene. Start with this video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX8ClPVkD1g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX8ClPVkD1g and then to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmVnHgwOZs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmVnHgwOZs or just search it on youtube. This helps me a lot to understand. Have fun.
- fus 14y agoNice videos. Thank you sir.
- fosfori 14y agoI want to share this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4YV0mrkfQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4YV0mrkfQ This video is from 2011 where people at Rice University are using almost this same method to create supercapacitors - apparently without realizing that they were actually making graphene.
- Selfcommit 14y agoAnyone else remember when this was posted a few months ago? (I wish my account was named pepperidge farm, just for occasions like this.)
- MichaelApproved 14y agoThis comment feels like its one step away from just being the word "repost". I really like browsing reddit but please leave these types of comments there. Hacker News is not reddit.
- Selfcommit 14y agoYeah, I don't understand the down votes honestly. We've seen this - not just a few months ago. Why is it ok to post again? Should I have provided the HN link?
- AndrewDucker 14y agoIt's more that your comment didn't add anything to the conversation. If you'd said "You can find the previous conversation at XXX" then you'd be contributing. As it is you just added noise.
- MichaelApproved 14y agoThanks for elaborating for me. The key point is adding to the conversation. Novelty accounts tend to be the realm of Reddit but one of my favorites is the one that says "Anyone looking for more information..." and goes on to list past posts of a link. That's infinitely better than simply "Repost"
- alanh 14y ago(semi-serious) Title should be “Meet another scientific accident that could change the world”
- paul_f 14y agoUsing Graphene to build supercapacitors is not a new idea as this video suggests. Here is an article from 2.5 years ago in PhysicsWorld describing another team doing almost the same thing: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/nov/26/graphene-supercapacitor-breaks-storage-record http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/nov/26/graphen...
- dj-doppelganger 14y agoHi - 1st post on Haker news. Please be nice :) Aren't debates over energy density of super conductors v. Li-Ion batteries missing the important point, relative cost? E.g. If the energy density is 1/4 lower but the cost is 1/40th as much then electric cars get ALOT more viable. Can anyone guess at the relative cost?
- bluedanieru 14y agoHow important that point is depends on how much range affects viability as opposed to the cost of the vehicle itself. Electric cars are rather expensive I guess, but few people are going to make the switch to cheaper cars if they only have a range of 20km.
- frozenport 14y agoDiamonds are carbon based but you can't use them to grow vegetables.
- MertsA 14y agoNot with that attitude, just put them in a 100% oxygen environment and heat with an arc furnace and Bob's your uncle you got CO2.
- achy 14y agoI wrote this last time too: Having a better conducting, higher surface area electrode is a huge step. BUT it doesn't really change the fact that a carbon based supercapacitor requires an electrolyte to form the double layer, and all existing electrolytes have a breakdown voltage below 5V. What we need is a better electrolyte. In calculating energy storage in a capacitor, the energy increases exponentially with voltage, while linearly with capacitance.
- chrisivens 14y agoI don't quite understand the maths behind all this but it certainly sound positive overall. It normally takes a while for things to get to the consumer but how long do we think it'll take to get to us or cars? Will it even get to consumers?