4 ms·

As a fellow vegan, I have to ask -- why be vegan if you have no objection to people eating animals, if they are raised/slaughtered "humanely"? Why not just buy

by mlent 14y ago

As a fellow vegan, I have to ask -- why be vegan if you have no objection to people eating animals, if they are raised/slaughtered "humanely"? Why not just buy local meat/dairy/eggs? At least where I live, it's pretty easy to meet farmers at a farmer's market and talk to them about how their animals are treated.

awolf 14y ago
Exactly. If you reason for avoiding meat is only because of shitty meat producers, then why not vote with your dollar instead and support the non-shitty meat producers?
- guygurari 14y ago
  See my reply to mlent.
guygurari 14y ago
First, I doubt we would be able to agree on a viable definition of "humane" commercial farming. But even if we did, I would not take the farmer's word for how the animals are treated. What I have heard from a former farmhand, who worked on several small farms, is that abuse of animals is simply the norm. It sounds reasonable to me that this is the situation, except perhaps in very small farms. History has taught me this: whenever humans have physical control over other humans, they tend to abuse their subjects in terrible ways. Slavery. The Holocaust. Gulags. North Korean concentration camps. It seems to me that the way we are treating animals is simply a manifestation of this tendency toward sadism. It is not difficult to find recorded evidence of pure sadism playing out both in small and large farms. Since I have no way to verify a given farmer's claims, I will not take the risk. Second, a well-balanced, strictly vegetarian diet is far more healthy than a diet that is based on animal products [1,2]. I know that many people do not believe this, and they base their views on the vast amount of disinformation that is out there. To get to the truth you have to listen to the experts. The book [1] I am citing was written by Dr. Walter Willett, one of the leading researchers on the relation between nutrition and disease. His recommendation is basically to eat as I suggested above. More precisely, he recommends (based on decades of research) to reduce animal-based foods as much as possible, and to reduce processed foods in favor of whole foods. There are of course additional recommendations that I will not go into. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/0743266420 http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/074326... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ
- mlent 14y ago
  I totally agree. It's nice to hear from people who've put some thought into what goes on their plate! As a side note, I have a friend who worked in a Buddhist monastery and tended their chickens. He even sang to them. I would totally buy their eggs :)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- solarbunny 14y ago
  Vegetarian diet more healthy? In what criterion? Lean body mass? Sprint speed? Hint: vegetarians are known to be slow [1]. I think whether vegetarian diet is more healthy depends on personal traits: gut flora, genetics, even climate one lives. Basically there is no such one-fits-all scenario for a diet. [1] Louise Burke - Clinical Sports Nutrition
  - mlent 14y ago
    You're less likely to have numerous health problems by following a vegetarian diet. As a vegetarian you are, for example, less likely to have heart disease, the number one killer in the United States. [1] Interestingly, some of the oldest people in the world eat a primarily plant-based diet (though not exclusively). [2] The issue is that you need a well planned veg diet. You can't just eat french fries and white bread and expect to maintain your health, obviously. For me, after a couple months of tracking my food and learning the calories/fat/protein of a lot of plant foods, I don't really have to think hard about creating well-balanced meals. It's a learning process. I'm sure it's possible to have a healthy diet that includes a very small amount of non-red meat. That small amount is probably not going to hurt you that much. [3] However, you can get every vital nutrient you would get from meat from a plant source without the tacked-on fat and cholesterol. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/vegetarians-heart-health-die-hospitalization_n_2583115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/vegetarians-heart-h... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-... [3] http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-urges-moderation-in-red-meat-intake-201203134490 http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-urges-moderation-in...

by mlent 14y ago

awolf 14y ago

Exactly. If you reason for avoiding meat is only because of shitty meat producers, then why not vote with your dollar instead and support the non-shitty meat producers?

guygurari 14y ago
See my reply to mlent.

guygurari 14y ago

First, I doubt we would be able to agree on a viable definition of "humane" commercial farming. But even if we did, I would not take the farmer's word for how the animals are treated. What I have heard from a former farmhand, who worked on several small farms, is that abuse of animals is simply the norm. It sounds reasonable to me that this is the situation, except perhaps in very small farms. History has taught me this: whenever humans have physical control over other humans, they tend to abuse their subjects in terrible ways. Slavery. The Holocaust. Gulags. North Korean concentration camps. It seems to me that the way we are treating animals is simply a manifestation of this tendency toward sadism. It is not difficult to find recorded evidence of pure sadism playing out both in small and large farms. Since I have no way to verify a given farmer's claims, I will not take the risk. Second, a well-balanced, strictly vegetarian diet is far more healthy than a diet that is based on animal products [1,2]. I know that many people do not believe this, and they base their views on the vast amount of disinformation that is out there. To get to the truth you have to listen to the experts. The book [1] I am citing was written by Dr. Walter Willett, one of the leading researchers on the relation between nutrition and disease. His recommendation is basically to eat as I suggested above. More precisely, he recommends (based on decades of research) to reduce animal-based foods as much as possible, and to reduce processed foods in favor of whole foods. There are of course additional recommendations that I will not go into. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/0743266420 http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/074326... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ

mlent 14y ago
I totally agree. It's nice to hear from people who've put some thought into what goes on their plate! As a side note, I have a friend who worked in a Buddhist monastery and tended their chickens. He even sang to them. I would totally buy their eggs :)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
solarbunny 14y ago
Vegetarian diet more healthy? In what criterion? Lean body mass? Sprint speed? Hint: vegetarians are known to be slow [1]. I think whether vegetarian diet is more healthy depends on personal traits: gut flora, genetics, even climate one lives. Basically there is no such one-fits-all scenario for a diet. [1] Louise Burke - Clinical Sports Nutrition
- mlent 14y ago
  You're less likely to have numerous health problems by following a vegetarian diet. As a vegetarian you are, for example, less likely to have heart disease, the number one killer in the United States. [1] Interestingly, some of the oldest people in the world eat a primarily plant-based diet (though not exclusively). [2] The issue is that you need a well planned veg diet. You can't just eat french fries and white bread and expect to maintain your health, obviously. For me, after a couple months of tracking my food and learning the calories/fat/protein of a lot of plant foods, I don't really have to think hard about creating well-balanced meals. It's a learning process. I'm sure it's possible to have a healthy diet that includes a very small amount of non-red meat. That small amount is probably not going to hurt you that much. [3] However, you can get every vital nutrient you would get from meat from a plant source without the tacked-on fat and cholesterol. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/vegetarians-heart-health-die-hospitalization_n_2583115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/vegetarians-heart-h... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-... [3] http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-urges-moderation-in-red-meat-intake-201203134490 http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-urges-moderation-in...