4 ms·

This sounds like you're saying "We've always done it so it is ok by me." It's flawed reasoning. Following that reasoning why'd we let women start to vote? As m

This sounds like you're saying "We've always done it so it is ok by me." It's flawed reasoning. Following that reasoning why'd we let women start to vote? As mlent points out we have a choice today. In the past there were times when it was necessary to travel and survive. Why do it if it's unnecessary?

bane 14y ago
Because eating some animals is necessary for human survival. Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it.
- autarch 14y ago
  Citation very much needed, since all the scientific evidence says this is not true.
  - bane 14y ago
    Read pretty much all the unbiased scientific literature that looks at the long term effects of a vegan diet, from nutritional studies to surveys of practicing populations. I won't bother to cite them. I'm assuming google isn't blocked in your country? (tip: papers published by vegan and vegetarian promoting organizations do not count). Don't think I'm defending modern diets either. Most people eat a woefully unhealthy diet regardless of what they eat. It's just that for most people who go to great lengths to adopt a highly specialized and unbalanced diet, it becomes religion, and they think it makes them immune to the fact of being an omnivore. Being an omnivore doesn't mean you can choose to eat plants OR animals, it means you must eat a bit of both. But you can certainly go for long spells on just one or the other, but long term, you'll most certainly end up with a case of malnutrition on some area. Most of the studies I've read show that 80-90% of Vegans suffer some malnutrition of some form (despite having fantastic health in many other areas). Put another way, if you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls (a number which approaches 100% in long term vegan population studies), you're doing it wrong.
    - ssprang 14y ago
      Sorry, citation still needed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028 "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. ... This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, and phytochemicals."
      - bane 14y ago
        Notice that your citation completely agrees with my statement above but includes lots of wiggle words like "can", "appropriately planned", "well planned", "supplements" and focuses on vegetarian diets without specifying type of diet and doesn't focus on veganism as a dietary habit. It also doesn't discuss long term dietary issues of vegan practitioners, percentage of practitioners with health deficits (ones who don't practice an "appropriately/well planned diet" and live without the use of "supplements"). Cite me some long term studies with randomly sampled population surveys and we can start having a real conversation.
        ssprang 14y ago
        I don't see anything that agrees with your original statement: "Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it." You have yet to cite anything supporting that. The only supplement that is strictly required on a vegan diet is B12. I'm not sure what's so inherently bad about taking a supplement anyway? Most people, regardless of diet, should be supplementing vitamin D in winter, for example. I wouldn't want to be following any diet that isn't appropriately planned, so I don't understand your repeated scare quotes. You can be vegan eating nothing but potato chips and coca-cola, but that wouldn't exactly be well planned. Is it possible to be unhealthy on a vegan diet? You bet. Is it possible to be unhealthy on an omnivorous diet? Look at the average American.

bane 14y ago

Because eating some animals is necessary for human survival. Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it.

autarch 14y ago
Citation very much needed, since all the scientific evidence says this is not true.
- bane 14y ago
  Read pretty much all the unbiased scientific literature that looks at the long term effects of a vegan diet, from nutritional studies to surveys of practicing populations. I won't bother to cite them. I'm assuming google isn't blocked in your country? (tip: papers published by vegan and vegetarian promoting organizations do not count). Don't think I'm defending modern diets either. Most people eat a woefully unhealthy diet regardless of what they eat. It's just that for most people who go to great lengths to adopt a highly specialized and unbalanced diet, it becomes religion, and they think it makes them immune to the fact of being an omnivore. Being an omnivore doesn't mean you can choose to eat plants OR animals, it means you must eat a bit of both. But you can certainly go for long spells on just one or the other, but long term, you'll most certainly end up with a case of malnutrition on some area. Most of the studies I've read show that 80-90% of Vegans suffer some malnutrition of some form (despite having fantastic health in many other areas). Put another way, if you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls (a number which approaches 100% in long term vegan population studies), you're doing it wrong.
  - ssprang 14y ago
    Sorry, citation still needed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028 "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. ... This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, and phytochemicals."
    - bane 14y ago
      Notice that your citation completely agrees with my statement above but includes lots of wiggle words like "can", "appropriately planned", "well planned", "supplements" and focuses on vegetarian diets without specifying type of diet and doesn't focus on veganism as a dietary habit. It also doesn't discuss long term dietary issues of vegan practitioners, percentage of practitioners with health deficits (ones who don't practice an "appropriately/well planned diet" and live without the use of "supplements"). Cite me some long term studies with randomly sampled population surveys and we can start having a real conversation.
      - ssprang 14y ago
        I don't see anything that agrees with your original statement: "Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it." You have yet to cite anything supporting that. The only supplement that is strictly required on a vegan diet is B12. I'm not sure what's so inherently bad about taking a supplement anyway? Most people, regardless of diet, should be supplementing vitamin D in winter, for example. I wouldn't want to be following any diet that isn't appropriately planned, so I don't understand your repeated scare quotes. You can be vegan eating nothing but potato chips and coca-cola, but that wouldn't exactly be well planned. Is it possible to be unhealthy on a vegan diet? You bet. Is it possible to be unhealthy on an omnivorous diet? Look at the average American.