6 ms·

I'm puzzled how you can claim that he has high ethical standards when he ran a business whose entire model is to rip off poor people.

quizbiz 18y ago
Take issue with payday loans not him.
- PostOnce 18y ago
  That's ridiculous. You don't blame rape, you blame the rapist. That doesn't make any sense and you know it. Just because other people do something wrong doesn't mean it's fine for you to do it.
  - quizbiz 18y ago
    Rape is illegal and horrible. Payday loans are very bad but they can be a hand in desperate situations. Then again, the fact that payday loans are legal doesn't mean that they are ethical. I get that. But we don't know what his firm's policies were, if any measures were taken to prevent payday loan abuse, etc. I find the debate about payday loans much more interesting than the debate of whether or not he should feel guilty for profiting. I don't know the regulations involved with payday loans but I assume they are very strict (and they should be stricter).
    - jibiki 18y ago
      You said, "take issue with payday loans not him." Then you said "we don't know what his firm's policies were, if any measures were taken to prevent payday loan abuse, etc." This is exactly the opposite sentiment: that we should take issue with him if his specific practices were predatory, but not with payday loans in general.
    - jhancock 18y ago
      Regulation on paydays loans is by design not strict. Most states passed special laws to work around existing usury laws to enable companies like these to exist. Its up to the payday company to figure out how to be profitable...and most are.
- cia_plant 18y ago
  But he ran a payday loan business. If you agree with me that this is an immoral business model, then how can you see the person who knowingly runs such a business as anything but immoral?
  - sokoloff 18y ago
    This dust-up over payday loans seems to me to be largely the same issue as low-wage garment work overseas. You might think "Boy, I hope I never get into a financial situation where taking out a payday loan is my best option!" And I'd agree with you 100%. When you extend that thinking to "Boy, if I were ever in such a dire situation, I wish that someone would take my best option [which we just agreed above was a payday loan] completely off the table such that I'd have to choose some even worse option than that!" is where you've departed from what I consider rational, logical thinking. If a payday loan is the best option for some overall disadvantaged consumers, why would one want to outlaw their best option, leaving them even more disadvantaged?
    - swombat 18y ago
      That's a nice theory, but it's totally ignoring the reality of payday loan companies. There's a fair few of them in the UK too and they are all, with no exception that I'm aware of, basically usury shops. They pressure their customers into taking up new high-interest loans when their old ones run out, by sending out hapless representatives to talk them into it (note: the reps are themselves pressured into using every trick in the book to try and make a sale, with all the company bullying and brainwashing techniques you can imagine.. I consider them victims too). They'll send out those reps when holidays approach too... "Wouldn't you like £200 cash right now so you can buy your kids a Christmas present?".. All in all, they're really the bottom of the barrel in terms of business ethics. Worse than crooks. I find it hard to believe that a payday loan company could be competitive without using all the shady tactics in the book, unless they did something radically different. There's no indication in the article that this one did something different, so it's fair to assume that this payday loan company was much like all the others.
      - 18y ago
pchristensen 18y ago
These "poor people" can't get regular bank accounts, so they have no way to cash paychecks. They have no access to traditional credit. The payday loan industry is competitive, so if it could be done cheaper, someone will do it. If it can't be done cheaper, those entrants will fail (too much risk). If poor people with no or bad credit history find another way to get credit, the payday loan industry will dry up. It's business. Live with it.
- omnipath 18y ago
  Here is what bothers me about this. How can you not get a regular bank account? Doesn't Bank of America just require an address, plus a deposit? What else is needed? I think it's more fair to say that they don't trust banks, rather than can't get regular bank accounts.
  - pchristensen 18y ago
    Doesn't Bank of America just require an address, plus a deposit? You can get a bad checking account with high monthly fees, check writing fees, ATM fees, etc. I'm pretty sure you have to submit to a credit check or have additional deposits to get a free account. While these bad checking accounts are probably less expensive overall, it's more difficult to judge the costs, especially for financially unsophisticated customers. One big fat fee from the payday lenders probably seems smaller than N smaller fees where N is unpredictable.
    - Retric 18y ago
      Most of those fees can be avoided if they treat the bank like those pay day loan processing places.
      - wushupork 18y ago
        While you and I may be financially educated and well versed, many people are not. The only reason credit card companies make money is because there are people who don't understand how credit card companies work and make only minimum payments. Not to mention there are cultural and demographical biases against banks and credit cards. When I was in China I knew many people who did not trust banks. They either did not want how much banks/government to really know how much money they had or weren't sure their interests would be looked after if something were to happen.
breck 18y ago
> when he ran a business whose entire model is to rip off poor people. I don't have any good data to back this up, but my guess is that Bank of America, Wells Fargo, etc., rip off way more poor people than this company. $2 atm fees, $35 overdraft fees, monthly fees unless you have high minimum balances, all the "0%" interest credit cards you can handle (until bankruptcy), and my personal favorite---"keep the change", a debit card card that deposits the change into a savings account to help you save more! What they don't mention is that the savings account pays significantly less interest than the inflation rate and that the average consumer spends over 10% more when using a card than cash holding all else equal. You get to "keep the change" while bank of America keeps the 2% merchant fees on debit card transactions... If your poor, the big banks don't care about you at all. They'd rather take all you have then kick you to the curb. Now if you have money, the banks are great. But I wouldn't attack this business because even if may be an expensive deal, at least they care about the low income market.

quizbiz 18y ago

Take issue with payday loans not him.

PostOnce 18y ago
That's ridiculous. You don't blame rape, you blame the rapist. That doesn't make any sense and you know it. Just because other people do something wrong doesn't mean it's fine for you to do it.
- quizbiz 18y ago
  Rape is illegal and horrible. Payday loans are very bad but they can be a hand in desperate situations. Then again, the fact that payday loans are legal doesn't mean that they are ethical. I get that. But we don't know what his firm's policies were, if any measures were taken to prevent payday loan abuse, etc. I find the debate about payday loans much more interesting than the debate of whether or not he should feel guilty for profiting. I don't know the regulations involved with payday loans but I assume they are very strict (and they should be stricter).
  - jibiki 18y ago
    You said, "take issue with payday loans not him." Then you said "we don't know what his firm's policies were, if any measures were taken to prevent payday loan abuse, etc." This is exactly the opposite sentiment: that we should take issue with him if his specific practices were predatory, but not with payday loans in general.
  - jhancock 18y ago
    Regulation on paydays loans is by design not strict. Most states passed special laws to work around existing usury laws to enable companies like these to exist. Its up to the payday company to figure out how to be profitable...and most are.
cia_plant 18y ago
But he ran a payday loan business. If you agree with me that this is an immoral business model, then how can you see the person who knowingly runs such a business as anything but immoral?
- sokoloff 18y ago
  This dust-up over payday loans seems to me to be largely the same issue as low-wage garment work overseas. You might think "Boy, I hope I never get into a financial situation where taking out a payday loan is my best option!" And I'd agree with you 100%. When you extend that thinking to "Boy, if I were ever in such a dire situation, I wish that someone would take my best option [which we just agreed above was a payday loan] completely off the table such that I'd have to choose some even worse option than that!" is where you've departed from what I consider rational, logical thinking. If a payday loan is the best option for some overall disadvantaged consumers, why would one want to outlaw their best option, leaving them even more disadvantaged?
  - swombat 18y ago
    That's a nice theory, but it's totally ignoring the reality of payday loan companies. There's a fair few of them in the UK too and they are all, with no exception that I'm aware of, basically usury shops. They pressure their customers into taking up new high-interest loans when their old ones run out, by sending out hapless representatives to talk them into it (note: the reps are themselves pressured into using every trick in the book to try and make a sale, with all the company bullying and brainwashing techniques you can imagine.. I consider them victims too). They'll send out those reps when holidays approach too... "Wouldn't you like £200 cash right now so you can buy your kids a Christmas present?".. All in all, they're really the bottom of the barrel in terms of business ethics. Worse than crooks. I find it hard to believe that a payday loan company could be competitive without using all the shady tactics in the book, unless they did something radically different. There's no indication in the article that this one did something different, so it's fair to assume that this payday loan company was much like all the others.
    - 18y ago

pchristensen 18y ago

These "poor people" can't get regular bank accounts, so they have no way to cash paychecks. They have no access to traditional credit. The payday loan industry is competitive, so if it could be done cheaper, someone will do it. If it can't be done cheaper, those entrants will fail (too much risk). If poor people with no or bad credit history find another way to get credit, the payday loan industry will dry up. It's business. Live with it.

omnipath 18y ago
Here is what bothers me about this. How can you not get a regular bank account? Doesn't Bank of America just require an address, plus a deposit? What else is needed? I think it's more fair to say that they don't trust banks, rather than can't get regular bank accounts.
- pchristensen 18y ago
  Doesn't Bank of America just require an address, plus a deposit? You can get a bad checking account with high monthly fees, check writing fees, ATM fees, etc. I'm pretty sure you have to submit to a credit check or have additional deposits to get a free account. While these bad checking accounts are probably less expensive overall, it's more difficult to judge the costs, especially for financially unsophisticated customers. One big fat fee from the payday lenders probably seems smaller than N smaller fees where N is unpredictable.
  - Retric 18y ago
    Most of those fees can be avoided if they treat the bank like those pay day loan processing places.
    - wushupork 18y ago
      While you and I may be financially educated and well versed, many people are not. The only reason credit card companies make money is because there are people who don't understand how credit card companies work and make only minimum payments. Not to mention there are cultural and demographical biases against banks and credit cards. When I was in China I knew many people who did not trust banks. They either did not want how much banks/government to really know how much money they had or weren't sure their interests would be looked after if something were to happen.

breck 18y ago

> when he ran a business whose entire model is to rip off poor people. I don't have any good data to back this up, but my guess is that Bank of America, Wells Fargo, etc., rip off way more poor people than this company. $2 atm fees, $35 overdraft fees, monthly fees unless you have high minimum balances, all the "0%" interest credit cards you can handle (until bankruptcy), and my personal favorite---"keep the change", a debit card card that deposits the change into a savings account to help you save more! What they don't mention is that the savings account pays significantly less interest than the inflation rate and that the average consumer spends over 10% more when using a card than cash holding all else equal. You get to "keep the change" while bank of America keeps the 2% merchant fees on debit card transactions... If your poor, the big banks don't care about you at all. They'd rather take all you have then kick you to the curb. Now if you have money, the banks are great. But I wouldn't attack this business because even if may be an expensive deal, at least they care about the low income market.