7 ms·

This is my belief too and a reason I'm vegetarian. In my mind the chance of us eventually beginning to see animals as more and more people like are VERY good. I

This is my belief too and a reason I'm vegetarian. In my mind the chance of us eventually beginning to see animals as more and more people like are VERY good. I don't want to look back over the last 20 years and realize that I killed and ate so many people especially since it is unnecessary. Part of my chain of reasoning is seeing how black people were referred to as animals and their intelligence and general ability was VERY much underestimated since we are in fact all human beings. Then seeing all of the research we've done with dolphins. They have their own language and social structure. Even bees have a language that we're just now beginning to understand. In fact, the more research we do, the more evidence we seem to find that we've sold "animals" short.

ams6110 14y ago
Animals eating each other is part of the nature of our existence. I myself don't feel any guilt about it.
- mlent 14y ago
  Yes, but not all animals eat one another. And we are not, like tigers and lions, obligate carnivores. We can survive and thrive without meat. Our bodies are capable of surprising dietary adaptation. If you don't need to kill/keep captive animals for food to live healthily, why do it? That's just my personal philosophy.
  - Goronmon 14y ago
    If you don't need to kill/keep captive animals for food to live healthily, why do it? Because it tastes good. Just like every other type of food we eat that isn't a requirement for living healthily.
    - mlent 14y ago
      I agree that it's the only actual "reason." I just don't think it's a good reason. I think it presumes that the value of "taste" for us is greater than the value of "life" to an animal. And there's a lot of evidence that most meat is very unhealthy for you, anyways. As an interesting (perhaps?) side note, I tasted meat recently for the first time in 2+ years and it was really lame and underwhelming. :/
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        > I tasted meat recently for the first time in 2+ years and it was really lame and underwhelming. That statement is about as bizarre as "I tasted alcohol once, I don't understand what the big deal is".
        mlent 14y ago
        I don't think it's the same at all. I don't think it requires a history of meat-eating in order to determine whether or not something tastes good to you or not. I tried steak, chicken, and fish. I don't think that most people would call meat "an acquired taste"? My personal theory is that vegans put in way more effort to make their food taste good than non-vegans, and we eat an extremely wide variety of foods, so eating things like "steak" or "chicken" is generally a very boring flavor experience. I had a bite of "good steak" and thought...this is alright, but I could make better-tasting seitan!
        jlgreco 14y ago
        > "I tried steak, chicken, and fish" That does not seem much better. You may as well say "I don't like alcohol, I tried 'good beer', wine, and liquor". There are particular animals that I like or do not like (salmon for instance I have never been a fan of with any preparation I have tried) and various preparations/cuts that I do not like (lamb chops, most preparations of steak besides rare (preferably Pittsburgh rare, which is sadly difficult to find or prepare yourself at home) and most baked/broiled preparations of poultry). These classifications are again only scratching the surface of course, basically just breaking the question down to "ale or lager? white wine or red? Dark liquor, or clear?" Regardless if it isn't your thing, then knock yourself out, but you should be sure that you don't fall into the trap of being confused why others don't share your personal preferences. (Or worse, trying to suggest that people who don't share your personal preferences are deluding themselves; lying to themselves about their own tastes.) I don't find myself annoyed by veganism/vegetariansim until I really get one of those vibes coming across.
        mlent 14y ago
    - pyre 14y ago
      | Because it tastes good Ah, but in a vacuum of other considerations, I hear that human flesh is very tasty. Would you fancy a go with cannibalism?
- darkxanthos 14y ago
  This sounds like you're saying "We've always done it so it is ok by me." It's flawed reasoning. Following that reasoning why'd we let women start to vote? As mlent points out we have a choice today. In the past there were times when it was necessary to travel and survive. Why do it if it's unnecessary?
  - bane 14y ago
    Because eating some animals is necessary for human survival. Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it.
    - autarch 14y ago
      Citation very much needed, since all the scientific evidence says this is not true.
      - bane 14y ago
        Read pretty much all the unbiased scientific literature that looks at the long term effects of a vegan diet, from nutritional studies to surveys of practicing populations. I won't bother to cite them. I'm assuming google isn't blocked in your country? (tip: papers published by vegan and vegetarian promoting organizations do not count). Don't think I'm defending modern diets either. Most people eat a woefully unhealthy diet regardless of what they eat. It's just that for most people who go to great lengths to adopt a highly specialized and unbalanced diet, it becomes religion, and they think it makes them immune to the fact of being an omnivore. Being an omnivore doesn't mean you can choose to eat plants OR animals, it means you must eat a bit of both. But you can certainly go for long spells on just one or the other, but long term, you'll most certainly end up with a case of malnutrition on some area. Most of the studies I've read show that 80-90% of Vegans suffer some malnutrition of some form (despite having fantastic health in many other areas). Put another way, if you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls (a number which approaches 100% in long term vegan population studies), you're doing it wrong.
- michaelvanham 14y ago
  Many of the animals that humans eat are born into captivity, caged their entire existence, and slaughtered at a young age. I feel sorrow for them.
  - awolf 14y ago
    And many of the animals humans eat are not. They are treated well, given ample amounts of the types of food their species was intended to eat, and slaughtered respectfully. Instead of simply opting out of the horrendous conditions you don't agree with, what about voting with your dollar to support the ethical alternatives?
    - mlent 14y ago
      The vast, vast majority of the animals that Americans and Western Europeans eat are treated cruelly from birth until premature death. Some estimates have it as high as 99% in the US [1]. If you go to your average grocery store, like most people do, that's kind of meat you'll find. I've yet to personally meet a meat-eater who actually buys local, grass-fed, truly free-range meat. In some ways, it's more ethical, in my opinion, to eat local, "humane" meat than it is to eat factory-farm produced eggs and dairy. I can't speak for michaelvanham, but a lot of veg*ns do vote with their dollars... It's pretty easy to find locally grown produce, plant-based non-animal-tested cleaning and hygiene products, etc. No way to be perfect, but easy to try :) [1] http://www.farmforward.com/farming-forward/factory-farming http://www.farmforward.com/farming-forward/factory-farming
    - darkxanthos 14y ago
      I have to laugh any time someone says "Humanely slaughtered" or in this case "slaughtered respectfully". I guess the oxymoron is non-obvious. Here's a couple extreme examples: I humanely slaughtered your family. I slaughtered your mother respectfully. Followed by: "Why are you so upset?? I could have just opted out of slaughtering your family but I decided to opt into doing it respectfully." I put that into familial terms to bring the context closer to home. We wouldn't stand for such language with humans. At the root is hubris and apathy.
- guygurari 14y ago
  I am a vegan for moral reasons, and I have no objection to people eating animals. What I do object to is the horrifying daily torture that animals must suffer in the meat, dairy and eggs industry. I am guessing this is where some of your food comes from. In my experience, people who have no qualms about using animal-based products are ignorant of the realities of how these products are made. I encourage you to watch Earthlings [1] -- free to watch on their site -- and see if you feel the same way once you've seen some evidence. [1] http://earthlings.com/ http://earthlings.com/
  - mlent 14y ago
    As a fellow vegan, I have to ask -- why be vegan if you have no objection to people eating animals, if they are raised/slaughtered "humanely"? Why not just buy local meat/dairy/eggs? At least where I live, it's pretty easy to meet farmers at a farmer's market and talk to them about how their animals are treated.
    - awolf 14y ago
      Exactly. If you reason for avoiding meat is only because of shitty meat producers, then why not vote with your dollar instead and support the non-shitty meat producers?
      - guygurari 14y ago
        See my reply to mlent.
    - guygurari 14y ago
      First, I doubt we would be able to agree on a viable definition of "humane" commercial farming. But even if we did, I would not take the farmer's word for how the animals are treated. What I have heard from a former farmhand, who worked on several small farms, is that abuse of animals is simply the norm. It sounds reasonable to me that this is the situation, except perhaps in very small farms. History has taught me this: whenever humans have physical control over other humans, they tend to abuse their subjects in terrible ways. Slavery. The Holocaust. Gulags. North Korean concentration camps. It seems to me that the way we are treating animals is simply a manifestation of this tendency toward sadism. It is not difficult to find recorded evidence of pure sadism playing out both in small and large farms. Since I have no way to verify a given farmer's claims, I will not take the risk. Second, a well-balanced, strictly vegetarian diet is far more healthy than a diet that is based on animal products [1,2]. I know that many people do not believe this, and they base their views on the vast amount of disinformation that is out there. To get to the truth you have to listen to the experts. The book [1] I am citing was written by Dr. Walter Willett, one of the leading researchers on the relation between nutrition and disease. His recommendation is basically to eat as I suggested above. More precisely, he recommends (based on decades of research) to reduce animal-based foods as much as possible, and to reduce processed foods in favor of whole foods. There are of course additional recommendations that I will not go into. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/0743266420 http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/074326... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ
- MarkMc 14y ago
  Here's a thought experiment: Imagine that I breed gorillas. Soon after reaching adulthood each gorilla is killed and made into dog food. One day I discover a gorilla whose mental abilities are similar to a 6-year old human child. That is, the gorilla can reason, communicate, be creative and show empathy just like a child. Is it OK to kill that gorilla? If so, how about an '8-year-old child' gorilla? Or 10-year-old?
- jacoblyles 14y ago
  Chickens, cows, and fish aren't very smart.
  - Peaker 14y ago
    Citation? AFAIK, cows are relatively smart.

ams6110 14y ago

Animals eating each other is part of the nature of our existence. I myself don't feel any guilt about it.

mlent 14y ago
Yes, but not all animals eat one another. And we are not, like tigers and lions, obligate carnivores. We can survive and thrive without meat. Our bodies are capable of surprising dietary adaptation. If you don't need to kill/keep captive animals for food to live healthily, why do it? That's just my personal philosophy.
- Goronmon 14y ago
  If you don't need to kill/keep captive animals for food to live healthily, why do it? Because it tastes good. Just like every other type of food we eat that isn't a requirement for living healthily.
  - mlent 14y ago
    I agree that it's the only actual "reason." I just don't think it's a good reason. I think it presumes that the value of "taste" for us is greater than the value of "life" to an animal. And there's a lot of evidence that most meat is very unhealthy for you, anyways. As an interesting (perhaps?) side note, I tasted meat recently for the first time in 2+ years and it was really lame and underwhelming. :/
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      > I tasted meat recently for the first time in 2+ years and it was really lame and underwhelming. That statement is about as bizarre as "I tasted alcohol once, I don't understand what the big deal is".
      - mlent 14y ago
        I don't think it's the same at all. I don't think it requires a history of meat-eating in order to determine whether or not something tastes good to you or not. I tried steak, chicken, and fish. I don't think that most people would call meat "an acquired taste"? My personal theory is that vegans put in way more effort to make their food taste good than non-vegans, and we eat an extremely wide variety of foods, so eating things like "steak" or "chicken" is generally a very boring flavor experience. I had a bite of "good steak" and thought...this is alright, but I could make better-tasting seitan!
        jlgreco 14y ago
        > "I tried steak, chicken, and fish" That does not seem much better. You may as well say "I don't like alcohol, I tried 'good beer', wine, and liquor". There are particular animals that I like or do not like (salmon for instance I have never been a fan of with any preparation I have tried) and various preparations/cuts that I do not like (lamb chops, most preparations of steak besides rare (preferably Pittsburgh rare, which is sadly difficult to find or prepare yourself at home) and most baked/broiled preparations of poultry). These classifications are again only scratching the surface of course, basically just breaking the question down to "ale or lager? white wine or red? Dark liquor, or clear?" Regardless if it isn't your thing, then knock yourself out, but you should be sure that you don't fall into the trap of being confused why others don't share your personal preferences. (Or worse, trying to suggest that people who don't share your personal preferences are deluding themselves; lying to themselves about their own tastes.) I don't find myself annoyed by veganism/vegetariansim until I really get one of those vibes coming across.
        mlent 14y ago
  - pyre 14y ago
    | Because it tastes good Ah, but in a vacuum of other considerations, I hear that human flesh is very tasty. Would you fancy a go with cannibalism?
darkxanthos 14y ago
This sounds like you're saying "We've always done it so it is ok by me." It's flawed reasoning. Following that reasoning why'd we let women start to vote? As mlent points out we have a choice today. In the past there were times when it was necessary to travel and survive. Why do it if it's unnecessary?
- bane 14y ago
  Because eating some animals is necessary for human survival. Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it.
  - autarch 14y ago
    Citation very much needed, since all the scientific evidence says this is not true.
    - bane 14y ago
      Read pretty much all the unbiased scientific literature that looks at the long term effects of a vegan diet, from nutritional studies to surveys of practicing populations. I won't bother to cite them. I'm assuming google isn't blocked in your country? (tip: papers published by vegan and vegetarian promoting organizations do not count). Don't think I'm defending modern diets either. Most people eat a woefully unhealthy diet regardless of what they eat. It's just that for most people who go to great lengths to adopt a highly specialized and unbalanced diet, it becomes religion, and they think it makes them immune to the fact of being an omnivore. Being an omnivore doesn't mean you can choose to eat plants OR animals, it means you must eat a bit of both. But you can certainly go for long spells on just one or the other, but long term, you'll most certainly end up with a case of malnutrition on some area. Most of the studies I've read show that 80-90% of Vegans suffer some malnutrition of some form (despite having fantastic health in many other areas). Put another way, if you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls (a number which approaches 100% in long term vegan population studies), you're doing it wrong.
michaelvanham 14y ago
Many of the animals that humans eat are born into captivity, caged their entire existence, and slaughtered at a young age. I feel sorrow for them.
- awolf 14y ago
  And many of the animals humans eat are not. They are treated well, given ample amounts of the types of food their species was intended to eat, and slaughtered respectfully. Instead of simply opting out of the horrendous conditions you don't agree with, what about voting with your dollar to support the ethical alternatives?
  - mlent 14y ago
    The vast, vast majority of the animals that Americans and Western Europeans eat are treated cruelly from birth until premature death. Some estimates have it as high as 99% in the US [1]. If you go to your average grocery store, like most people do, that's kind of meat you'll find. I've yet to personally meet a meat-eater who actually buys local, grass-fed, truly free-range meat. In some ways, it's more ethical, in my opinion, to eat local, "humane" meat than it is to eat factory-farm produced eggs and dairy. I can't speak for michaelvanham, but a lot of veg*ns do vote with their dollars... It's pretty easy to find locally grown produce, plant-based non-animal-tested cleaning and hygiene products, etc. No way to be perfect, but easy to try :) [1] http://www.farmforward.com/farming-forward/factory-farming http://www.farmforward.com/farming-forward/factory-farming
  - darkxanthos 14y ago
    I have to laugh any time someone says "Humanely slaughtered" or in this case "slaughtered respectfully". I guess the oxymoron is non-obvious. Here's a couple extreme examples: I humanely slaughtered your family. I slaughtered your mother respectfully. Followed by: "Why are you so upset?? I could have just opted out of slaughtering your family but I decided to opt into doing it respectfully." I put that into familial terms to bring the context closer to home. We wouldn't stand for such language with humans. At the root is hubris and apathy.
guygurari 14y ago
I am a vegan for moral reasons, and I have no objection to people eating animals. What I do object to is the horrifying daily torture that animals must suffer in the meat, dairy and eggs industry. I am guessing this is where some of your food comes from. In my experience, people who have no qualms about using animal-based products are ignorant of the realities of how these products are made. I encourage you to watch Earthlings [1] -- free to watch on their site -- and see if you feel the same way once you've seen some evidence. [1] http://earthlings.com/ http://earthlings.com/
- mlent 14y ago
  As a fellow vegan, I have to ask -- why be vegan if you have no objection to people eating animals, if they are raised/slaughtered "humanely"? Why not just buy local meat/dairy/eggs? At least where I live, it's pretty easy to meet farmers at a farmer's market and talk to them about how their animals are treated.
  - awolf 14y ago
    Exactly. If you reason for avoiding meat is only because of shitty meat producers, then why not vote with your dollar instead and support the non-shitty meat producers?
    - guygurari 14y ago
      See my reply to mlent.
  - guygurari 14y ago
    First, I doubt we would be able to agree on a viable definition of "humane" commercial farming. But even if we did, I would not take the farmer's word for how the animals are treated. What I have heard from a former farmhand, who worked on several small farms, is that abuse of animals is simply the norm. It sounds reasonable to me that this is the situation, except perhaps in very small farms. History has taught me this: whenever humans have physical control over other humans, they tend to abuse their subjects in terrible ways. Slavery. The Holocaust. Gulags. North Korean concentration camps. It seems to me that the way we are treating animals is simply a manifestation of this tendency toward sadism. It is not difficult to find recorded evidence of pure sadism playing out both in small and large farms. Since I have no way to verify a given farmer's claims, I will not take the risk. Second, a well-balanced, strictly vegetarian diet is far more healthy than a diet that is based on animal products [1,2]. I know that many people do not believe this, and they base their views on the vast amount of disinformation that is out there. To get to the truth you have to listen to the experts. The book [1] I am citing was written by Dr. Walter Willett, one of the leading researchers on the relation between nutrition and disease. His recommendation is basically to eat as I suggested above. More precisely, he recommends (based on decades of research) to reduce animal-based foods as much as possible, and to reduce processed foods in favor of whole foods. There are of course additional recommendations that I will not go into. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/0743266420 http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Drink-Be-Healthy-Harvard/dp/074326... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ
MarkMc 14y ago
Here's a thought experiment: Imagine that I breed gorillas. Soon after reaching adulthood each gorilla is killed and made into dog food. One day I discover a gorilla whose mental abilities are similar to a 6-year old human child. That is, the gorilla can reason, communicate, be creative and show empathy just like a child. Is it OK to kill that gorilla? If so, how about an '8-year-old child' gorilla? Or 10-year-old?
jacoblyles 14y ago
Chickens, cows, and fish aren't very smart.
- Peaker 14y ago
  Citation? AFAIK, cows are relatively smart.