5 ms·

I saw this situation coming a long while ago. These companies are now turning against those who made them what thu are. Worst is that they turned against us, th

I saw this situation coming a long while ago. These companies are now turning against those who made them what thu are. Worst is that they turned against us, the hackers. No or limited API access, real name policies, lack of gener privacy, no way to get your data back, etc. All of this as a result of these companies being run by the traditional corporate drone. This is why Nuuton is being developed, by me, a hacker with business experience. I know how the value Of a company depends by the hacker community that forms around it. When I say value I don't mean money. I mean how well the company is poised to do some re innovation and provide a good dependable service to the community at large. Nuuton features a strict privacy policy with no re names, no tracking, no bubbles, and private data as a default. It will also allow for easy access to your data. All of it. To the hacker community, it has and will have a robust collection of APIs for you to use without draconian limitations. Best of all, Nuuton is not being developed as a one way lottery ticket. I don't need or want the money. I'm building it because I have had it up to here with dealing with these abusive companies.

gnosis 14y ago
I hope what you're building is open source and resides 100% on the client's machine. Because if it's closed source or makes use of your servers, then it can't be trusted, no matter what lofty rhetoric you use to advertise it. The fact is that if it makes use of your servers, you have the power to spy on the people using your service. You may claim that you won't, and provide a lovely privacy policy, but there's no way for the users to make sure you're actually adhering to those policies. Then it comes down to trust, and some of us don't have a lot of trust left. This is why I use client-based, open source RSS readers like Newsbeuter,[1] and will not be moving to any web-based reader, no matter what features they have or how concerned they claim to be about privacy. That said, if I had to use a web-based service, I'd much rather use one that claimed to have a commitment to privacy than one that didn't. So kudos to you for that. [1] - http://www.newsbeuter.org/index.html http://www.newsbeuter.org/index.html
- amirmc 14y ago
  One of the issues in the multi-device world is that you want to have some kind of sync across those devices. From what I can gather, this was one of the most useful features of using Reader as the backend and I can't see how to replicate it without having some kind of central server. This is a more general problem and (I believe) it will become more important in the coming years.
  - gnosis 14y ago
    I don't see why an RSS app that resides 100% on a mobile device couldn't sync directly with another RSS app that resides 100% on your home computer or your work computer. No external RSS service necessary. That said, I understand that sometimes externally controlled and centralized services can provide features and convenience at the expense of user control and privacy. I care enough about my privacy, and aware enough of the alternatives to choose to tend to choose privacy over features and convenience (when I'm faced with such a choice). I know a lot of users don't care about their privacy, don't realize how loss of privacy could impact them, or don't know that there are alternatives. So they often choose to use "free" web services that give them some features or convenience (or just because all their friends use it, etc.). This is unfortunate, but hopefully as more people become computer literate, the media exposes more cases of privacy violations, and more people become victims of identity theft, internet stalking, harrassment, and discrimination based on their computer and internet use habits, they'll start to wisen up and care more about privacy. I only hope that by then it won't be too late.
    - pseut 14y ago
      Agree completely. I'd love to use my phone as the sync server, the thing's on and under-utilized all the time anyway.
      - tanzam75 14y ago
        That is a very good point. It used to be that you had to keep your computer on to serve as your own cloud. If your electricity prices were high, this didn't make sense. But now, the smartphone is the always-on computer. And it uses minimal power -- possibly even less power than cloud computing, which is deliberately oversized in order to handle peak loads. I suspect it's too complicated for non-geeks to figure out, though. There are also certain drawbacks-- for example, your phone has real storage limits, while the cloud can expand without user intervention.
- orangethirty 14y ago
  I reason there is a middle ground. The aim is to, at the very least, get hackers to start thinking about privacy and about building systems that are beneficial to society whe respecting the rights of those who use them. I am using open source software, and I am releasing the code when it reaches a point where it can be useful (as django apps/python packages and Lisp libraries). The ALPHA and beta versions f the system (will) reside on my servers until the de-coupled design is completed. Because the real beauty about Nuuton is that is simply a loosely coupled system built on top of a collection of APIs. The client drives all of the logic and simpy send/receive encrypted data. All data on Nuuton is encrypted. All of it. So, at the ALPHA level it will not be completely open as you state. But it will respect your privacy and will be open to audit to researchers. I believe in privacy and am building a system that respects it. I had never talked about the system itself, but its about to hit early ALPHA. Keep posted for the announcement. Note that those who signed in as ALPHA users get a hacker account with access to the first APIs. I'm pretty sure this project will not become huge. But it will get a of us thinking about making more open systems.
  - 18pfsmt 14y ago
    Based on what you've written here, I'm very interested in what you are talking about. However, what I can't understand is why you would choose to go-it-alone, when other projects are looking to do the same thing. Namely, buddycloud.org and tent.io. The open source world seems to get so fractured, even among projects that seem to be aiming at solving the same problem, that none ever gain enough traction to reach the goal with any kind of success. I wish you luck on your project, but I hope you will look at those that have existed before yours (e.g. Diaspora), and those that are taking a new approach (mentioned above). EDIT to add references: https://github.com/tent https://github.com/tent https://github.com/buddycloud https://github.com/buddycloud https://github.com/diaspora https://github.com/diaspora
    - orangethirty 14y ago
      I appreciate the nice gesture. I do know about these other projects, and do consider them as allies. But I believe that the more projects we have like these coming out, the more improvements will there be made as whole.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
philsnow 14y ago
Can't tell if elaborate troll or serious... "lack of gener[al] privacy": Wasn't Google the first major webmail provider to provide SSL access (and encourage it)? "no way to get your data back": http://google.com/takeout http://google.com/takeout "run by the traditional corporate drone": Would that be Eric Schmidt, who got a Ph.D. from Berkeley in EECS and co-wrote lex ? Or Larry Page, who left Stanford's graduate degree program to be an entrepreneur in 1998? If Nuuton is worth anybody's attention, you won't need to lower yourself to this kind of post.
- gwern 14y ago
  > These companies are now turning against those who made them what thu are. Worst is that they turned against us, the hackers. All your examples are in the past, except for Takeout, and I would no more put much money on that surviving in a full-strength form (if at all) for the next 10 years than I would Blogger or Keep staying up and active.
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    SSL is still the default for both GMail and Websearch. Larry Page is still the current CEO of Google.
    - gwern 14y ago
      Not rolling back some changes they made long ago is not very impressive a defense. > Larry Page is still the current CEO of Google. 'Still'? Schmidt was CEO for a large chunk of Google's existence. And yes, Page does seem to be the problem. I'm reading _In The Plex_ now, and maybe it's just me projecting, but Page seems to come off as a autistic asshole with problems and the book speculates it's related to his father's death.
      - nostrademons 14y ago
        I'm unsure what your point is. philsnow pointed out that both Schmidt and Page are not your typical corporate drones (they have serious technical contributions as individuals), and your response is that it was Schmidt and not Page who was CEO for much of Google's existence?

gnosis 14y ago

I hope what you're building is open source and resides 100% on the client's machine. Because if it's closed source or makes use of your servers, then it can't be trusted, no matter what lofty rhetoric you use to advertise it. The fact is that if it makes use of your servers, you have the power to spy on the people using your service. You may claim that you won't, and provide a lovely privacy policy, but there's no way for the users to make sure you're actually adhering to those policies. Then it comes down to trust, and some of us don't have a lot of trust left. This is why I use client-based, open source RSS readers like Newsbeuter,[1] and will not be moving to any web-based reader, no matter what features they have or how concerned they claim to be about privacy. That said, if I had to use a web-based service, I'd much rather use one that claimed to have a commitment to privacy than one that didn't. So kudos to you for that. [1] - http://www.newsbeuter.org/index.html http://www.newsbeuter.org/index.html

amirmc 14y ago
One of the issues in the multi-device world is that you want to have some kind of sync across those devices. From what I can gather, this was one of the most useful features of using Reader as the backend and I can't see how to replicate it without having some kind of central server. This is a more general problem and (I believe) it will become more important in the coming years.
- gnosis 14y ago
  I don't see why an RSS app that resides 100% on a mobile device couldn't sync directly with another RSS app that resides 100% on your home computer or your work computer. No external RSS service necessary. That said, I understand that sometimes externally controlled and centralized services can provide features and convenience at the expense of user control and privacy. I care enough about my privacy, and aware enough of the alternatives to choose to tend to choose privacy over features and convenience (when I'm faced with such a choice). I know a lot of users don't care about their privacy, don't realize how loss of privacy could impact them, or don't know that there are alternatives. So they often choose to use "free" web services that give them some features or convenience (or just because all their friends use it, etc.). This is unfortunate, but hopefully as more people become computer literate, the media exposes more cases of privacy violations, and more people become victims of identity theft, internet stalking, harrassment, and discrimination based on their computer and internet use habits, they'll start to wisen up and care more about privacy. I only hope that by then it won't be too late.
  - pseut 14y ago
    Agree completely. I'd love to use my phone as the sync server, the thing's on and under-utilized all the time anyway.
    - tanzam75 14y ago
      That is a very good point. It used to be that you had to keep your computer on to serve as your own cloud. If your electricity prices were high, this didn't make sense. But now, the smartphone is the always-on computer. And it uses minimal power -- possibly even less power than cloud computing, which is deliberately oversized in order to handle peak loads. I suspect it's too complicated for non-geeks to figure out, though. There are also certain drawbacks-- for example, your phone has real storage limits, while the cloud can expand without user intervention.
orangethirty 14y ago
I reason there is a middle ground. The aim is to, at the very least, get hackers to start thinking about privacy and about building systems that are beneficial to society whe respecting the rights of those who use them. I am using open source software, and I am releasing the code when it reaches a point where it can be useful (as django apps/python packages and Lisp libraries). The ALPHA and beta versions f the system (will) reside on my servers until the de-coupled design is completed. Because the real beauty about Nuuton is that is simply a loosely coupled system built on top of a collection of APIs. The client drives all of the logic and simpy send/receive encrypted data. All data on Nuuton is encrypted. All of it. So, at the ALPHA level it will not be completely open as you state. But it will respect your privacy and will be open to audit to researchers. I believe in privacy and am building a system that respects it. I had never talked about the system itself, but its about to hit early ALPHA. Keep posted for the announcement. Note that those who signed in as ALPHA users get a hacker account with access to the first APIs. I'm pretty sure this project will not become huge. But it will get a of us thinking about making more open systems.
- 18pfsmt 14y ago
  Based on what you've written here, I'm very interested in what you are talking about. However, what I can't understand is why you would choose to go-it-alone, when other projects are looking to do the same thing. Namely, buddycloud.org and tent.io. The open source world seems to get so fractured, even among projects that seem to be aiming at solving the same problem, that none ever gain enough traction to reach the goal with any kind of success. I wish you luck on your project, but I hope you will look at those that have existed before yours (e.g. Diaspora), and those that are taking a new approach (mentioned above). EDIT to add references: https://github.com/tent https://github.com/tent https://github.com/buddycloud https://github.com/buddycloud https://github.com/diaspora https://github.com/diaspora
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    I appreciate the nice gesture. I do know about these other projects, and do consider them as allies. But I believe that the more projects we have like these coming out, the more improvements will there be made as whole.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

philsnow 14y ago

Can't tell if elaborate troll or serious... "lack of gener[al] privacy": Wasn't Google the first major webmail provider to provide SSL access (and encourage it)? "no way to get your data back": http://google.com/takeout http://google.com/takeout "run by the traditional corporate drone": Would that be Eric Schmidt, who got a Ph.D. from Berkeley in EECS and co-wrote lex ? Or Larry Page, who left Stanford's graduate degree program to be an entrepreneur in 1998? If Nuuton is worth anybody's attention, you won't need to lower yourself to this kind of post.

gwern 14y ago
> These companies are now turning against those who made them what thu are. Worst is that they turned against us, the hackers. All your examples are in the past, except for Takeout, and I would no more put much money on that surviving in a full-strength form (if at all) for the next 10 years than I would Blogger or Keep staying up and active.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  SSL is still the default for both GMail and Websearch. Larry Page is still the current CEO of Google.
  - gwern 14y ago
    Not rolling back some changes they made long ago is not very impressive a defense. > Larry Page is still the current CEO of Google. 'Still'? Schmidt was CEO for a large chunk of Google's existence. And yes, Page does seem to be the problem. I'm reading _In The Plex_ now, and maybe it's just me projecting, but Page seems to come off as a autistic asshole with problems and the book speculates it's related to his father's death.
    - nostrademons 14y ago
      I'm unsure what your point is. philsnow pointed out that both Schmidt and Page are not your typical corporate drones (they have serious technical contributions as individuals), and your response is that it was Schmidt and not Page who was CEO for much of Google's existence?