14 ms·

> but it's a Buyer's Market On what planet?

VikingCoder 14y ago
You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? Maybe I've been fortunate enough to work for companies that had enough gravitational pull that we attract good candidates without trying very hard.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  > You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? Outside of the tech hub cities, yes, it can be very hard. Even just an hour out of Philadelphia, helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits (well above average in their area), there were very few applicants and fewer actually qualified to do any professional programming. It took almost a year to fill a single developer position. Programmers are a rare species in most of the country. My CS graduating class a few years back was probably 30-40 people and, having worked with many of them in various classes, many were completely incompetent, having only passed by copying and pasting or sharing code. The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    > "helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits (well above average in their area)" I work for a NYC startup that has hired Philly residents in the past - either remote or remote-occasional-commute. Geographic salary fences are falling, and falling quickly - may I suggest $95K is below-market? Heck, around here $95K is below-market for a good, fresh undergrad.
    - southphillyman 14y ago
      Yea, that seemed off base. I work about a 40 min. outside of Philly and the going rate in my group is $100/hr...with some guys negotiating more than that. Not suggesting that that is normal in the area, but half that for senior devs isn't either.
  - VikingCoder 14y ago
    > The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010. I've gotten into a debate with some friends about this: a degree on a resume is really great, but it's not necessary for the vast majority of programming jobs. > helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits I hear that driving a truck in the North Dakota oil boom can earn you $150k, to start. Even in a Buyer's Market, you have to offer a realistic salary. > well above average in their area Average what? Average programmer? > there were very few applicants How did the company find candidates? I feel like a lot of companies expect applicants... This is like expecting the phone to ring and having someone ask you out on a date. Putting your profile up on Match.com isn't much better. If you want to hire people an hour out of Philadelphia, have you considered training people who live an hour out of Philadelphia for the job? Again, I've said this a few times, maybe I've been very fortunate to work at companies with enough gravitational pull, because we work hard to make sure people know they're supposed to apply. But since we've put that effort in, we have overly-qualified applicants lined up for openings that don't exist. > many were completely incompetent You just told me that CS graduates can still be completely incompetent, but then you expressed surprise that apparently degrees don't matter that much any more. =)
    - zanny 14y ago
      > You just told me that CS graduates can still be completely incompetent, but then you expressed surprise that apparently degrees don't matter that much any more. =) In his defense, and as a recent grad with my CS degree this last year, the curriculum doesn't really sell itself at all for professional software development. Knowing algorithms / language theory / OS theory / theory in general doesn't mean you can throw together a Django app or use git. I had to learn those outside the classroom, because class projects were about convex hull and Monte Hall, not making useful software. In 9 months since graduating I've gone from my favorite language being C, my experience being in Java and a smidgen of Swing (and still an incomplete knoweldge of the Java thread model, how to write for the JVM, and some others) I did know some CUDA / pthreads / openMP but from an elective on parallel systems, I had a touch of Python 2.7, and almost no sysadmin experience, to now my preferred language is Python3, I know and use qt for FOSS work, I learned html / javascript / C# / regular expressions / SQL / proper networking / the kde libs / pyside / simpy / numpy, I switched full time to Arch and learned Unix ground up, I learned about assembly, unicode, byte order marks, etc. I never touched on any of that in school. Given, my school was a mediocre liberal arts place I went to just for the near-free scholarship, but I get the impression from other schools I encountered during ASM contests that the curriculum was similar.
  - zanny 14y ago
    Where outside Philly are you? I'm in Berks and while I'm shopping everywhere from NY to SF for an entry position out of college, there is nothing close to any demand for developers I can find in these parts. Philly itself can be ok for positions, but outside the city seems like a barren wasteland. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I'm absent a network, so I'm just using online job boards from Careers 2.0 to Dice to Linked In, and I just don't see anything.
    - hispanic 14y ago
      You need that "network". And by "network", I mean people. Find someone you respect, at least professionally. Someone that impresses you. Someone that you'd be happy to pattern your professional self after. Solicit their advice. Listen to what they say. Earn their respect in return for the time they offer you. Good things will eventually happen. (Translation: they'll help you find jobs.) If you feel that you've tried this and you can't find anyone, I see two options: 1. Establish these relationships online. HN is a good start. There's also no shortage of good software developers writing blogs. Interact with a few that you really respect. Comment on their posts. Connect with them on LI and Twitter. Email them. Taking it to a personal level where they'll feel the desire to go out of their way to help you could be difficult, but it's possible. 2. Move. If your present community truly is devoid of people you respect who would be willing to mentor you in some way, you need to switch it up and expand your circle of potential colleagues.
- onemorepassword 14y ago
  I was in that fortunate situation until last year. Now even that well has virtually dried up. Some of the programmers in my team are fairly high profile within the community, but what they've been reporting back from conferences and meetups is "dude, half the people are trying to hire the other half..."
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
vinceguidry 14y ago
> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? If it were easy to find programmers, you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. They wouldn't need to. It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick of corporate gig | freelancing | startup. My last job hunt took one hour. Their search went on for two months. If they fired me I could line up a dozen interviews next week, they'd still have to wade through a sea of unqualified/foreign/unmotivated alternatives. It's not that I'm that good, I'm an entry-level Ruby guy working in a .NET shop. I interview well, but they interviewed a dozen guys before me. My job offer came the same day as the interview, after a token 4 hour wait. It's not that they were being overly selective, the pool they were fishing in was just that bad. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a buyer's market for programming talent.
- VikingCoder 14y ago
  > you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especially the lower down the scale we went. > My last job hunt took one hour. I have applicants for positions that don't exist. My applicant search takes negative time. > If they fired me I could line up a dozen interviews next week If someone quits, I can line up a dozen candidates next week. > they'd still have to wade through a sea of unqualified/foreign/unmotivated alternatives. Every day, you make judgements about which companies would be fun to work through - you're always doing that background processing. > they interviewed a dozen guys before me. So, as a Buyer, they had a line of candidates applying. Most of their problem was probably announcing to the world that they had an open position that people should know to apply to. That sounds like a Buyer's Market to me. > I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a buyer's market for programming talent. The length of time I've seen open positions sit unfilled, and the number of applicants who'd be qualified to fill it. In any market, a good that's sufficiently - well - "valuable" - will be picked up in no time. Congrats on crossing that threshold, I guess. But yes, I consider it a Buyer's Market.

You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? Maybe I've been fortunate enough to work for companies that had enough gravitational pull that we attract good candidates without trying very hard.

dangrossman 14y ago
> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? Outside of the tech hub cities, yes, it can be very hard. Even just an hour out of Philadelphia, helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits (well above average in their area), there were very few applicants and fewer actually qualified to do any professional programming. It took almost a year to fill a single developer position. Programmers are a rare species in most of the country. My CS graduating class a few years back was probably 30-40 people and, having worked with many of them in various classes, many were completely incompetent, having only passed by copying and pasting or sharing code. The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits (well above average in their area)" I work for a NYC startup that has hired Philly residents in the past - either remote or remote-occasional-commute. Geographic salary fences are falling, and falling quickly - may I suggest $95K is below-market? Heck, around here $95K is below-market for a good, fresh undergrad.
  - southphillyman 14y ago
    Yea, that seemed off base. I work about a 40 min. outside of Philly and the going rate in my group is $100/hr...with some guys negotiating more than that. Not suggesting that that is normal in the area, but half that for senior devs isn't either.
- VikingCoder 14y ago
  > The entire country graduated less than 10k people from CS programs in 2010. I've gotten into a debate with some friends about this: a degree on a resume is really great, but it's not necessary for the vast majority of programming jobs. > helping a local company offering $95k salary and benefits I hear that driving a truck in the North Dakota oil boom can earn you $150k, to start. Even in a Buyer's Market, you have to offer a realistic salary. > well above average in their area Average what? Average programmer? > there were very few applicants How did the company find candidates? I feel like a lot of companies expect applicants... This is like expecting the phone to ring and having someone ask you out on a date. Putting your profile up on Match.com isn't much better. If you want to hire people an hour out of Philadelphia, have you considered training people who live an hour out of Philadelphia for the job? Again, I've said this a few times, maybe I've been very fortunate to work at companies with enough gravitational pull, because we work hard to make sure people know they're supposed to apply. But since we've put that effort in, we have overly-qualified applicants lined up for openings that don't exist. > many were completely incompetent You just told me that CS graduates can still be completely incompetent, but then you expressed surprise that apparently degrees don't matter that much any more. =)
  - zanny 14y ago
    > You just told me that CS graduates can still be completely incompetent, but then you expressed surprise that apparently degrees don't matter that much any more. =) In his defense, and as a recent grad with my CS degree this last year, the curriculum doesn't really sell itself at all for professional software development. Knowing algorithms / language theory / OS theory / theory in general doesn't mean you can throw together a Django app or use git. I had to learn those outside the classroom, because class projects were about convex hull and Monte Hall, not making useful software. In 9 months since graduating I've gone from my favorite language being C, my experience being in Java and a smidgen of Swing (and still an incomplete knoweldge of the Java thread model, how to write for the JVM, and some others) I did know some CUDA / pthreads / openMP but from an elective on parallel systems, I had a touch of Python 2.7, and almost no sysadmin experience, to now my preferred language is Python3, I know and use qt for FOSS work, I learned html / javascript / C# / regular expressions / SQL / proper networking / the kde libs / pyside / simpy / numpy, I switched full time to Arch and learned Unix ground up, I learned about assembly, unicode, byte order marks, etc. I never touched on any of that in school. Given, my school was a mediocre liberal arts place I went to just for the near-free scholarship, but I get the impression from other schools I encountered during ASM contests that the curriculum was similar.
- zanny 14y ago
  Where outside Philly are you? I'm in Berks and while I'm shopping everywhere from NY to SF for an entry position out of college, there is nothing close to any demand for developers I can find in these parts. Philly itself can be ok for positions, but outside the city seems like a barren wasteland. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I'm absent a network, so I'm just using online job boards from Careers 2.0 to Dice to Linked In, and I just don't see anything.
  - hispanic 14y ago
    You need that "network". And by "network", I mean people. Find someone you respect, at least professionally. Someone that impresses you. Someone that you'd be happy to pattern your professional self after. Solicit their advice. Listen to what they say. Earn their respect in return for the time they offer you. Good things will eventually happen. (Translation: they'll help you find jobs.) If you feel that you've tried this and you can't find anyone, I see two options: 1. Establish these relationships online. HN is a good start. There's also no shortage of good software developers writing blogs. Interact with a few that you really respect. Comment on their posts. Connect with them on LI and Twitter. Email them. Taking it to a personal level where they'll feel the desire to go out of their way to help you could be difficult, but it's possible. 2. Move. If your present community truly is devoid of people you respect who would be willing to mentor you in some way, you need to switch it up and expand your circle of potential colleagues.
onemorepassword 14y ago
I was in that fortunate situation until last year. Now even that well has virtually dried up. Some of the programmers in my team are fairly high profile within the community, but what they've been reporting back from conferences and meetups is "dude, half the people are trying to hire the other half..."
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

vinceguidry 14y ago

> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? If it were easy to find programmers, you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. They wouldn't need to. It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick of corporate gig | freelancing | startup. My last job hunt took one hour. Their search went on for two months. If they fired me I could line up a dozen interviews next week, they'd still have to wade through a sea of unqualified/foreign/unmotivated alternatives. It's not that I'm that good, I'm an entry-level Ruby guy working in a .NET shop. I interview well, but they interviewed a dozen guys before me. My job offer came the same day as the interview, after a token 4 hour wait. It's not that they were being overly selective, the pool they were fishing in was just that bad. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a buyer's market for programming talent.

VikingCoder 14y ago
> you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especially the lower down the scale we went. > My last job hunt took one hour. I have applicants for positions that don't exist. My applicant search takes negative time. > If they fired me I could line up a dozen interviews next week If someone quits, I can line up a dozen candidates next week. > they'd still have to wade through a sea of unqualified/foreign/unmotivated alternatives. Every day, you make judgements about which companies would be fun to work through - you're always doing that background processing. > they interviewed a dozen guys before me. So, as a Buyer, they had a line of candidates applying. Most of their problem was probably announcing to the world that they had an open position that people should know to apply to. That sounds like a Buyer's Market to me. > I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a buyer's market for programming talent. The length of time I've seen open positions sit unfilled, and the number of applicants who'd be qualified to fill it. In any market, a good that's sufficiently - well - "valuable" - will be picked up in no time. Congrats on crossing that threshold, I guess. But yes, I consider it a Buyer's Market.