4 ms·

One has to understand/learn/remember that Germany doesn't have the same speed limit laws like we do in other countries/cities. In other words, the more people

by OzzyB 14y ago

One has to understand/learn/remember that Germany doesn't have the same speed limit laws like we do in other countries/cities. In other words, the more people respect "zebra crossings", the less drivers have to worry about driving 15 bloody mph in some residential area cause the folks there see no problem in just jumping across the street. What the German example shows us is that: if we all abide by the rules -- with no exceptions -- we can all have nice things. (like driving your Porsche @150mph on the freeway cause we are actually adults) Some might call that an environment for progress and innovation :)

dlitwak 14y ago
there is the letter and the spirit of the law. I think the spirit of the law is what is usually important, and in the case when there is no car in sight and no one is walking across the street, that's what i was referring to. regardless, it's an example that I saw and thought represented the general mindset, and reflected what I saw and heard from Germans themselves about the state of the startup ecosystem.
- cygx 14y ago
  I don't find it particularly surprising: You tell your kids to only cross the street when the light turns green (or at zebra crossings), and it becomes habit even for adults. Of course jaywalking does happen (at least here in Frankfurt, and I'd guess it's the same for Berlin), but it's discouraged (Think of the Children[tm] [1]), and personally I see no harm in waiting the additional minute if I'm not in a hurry. [1] http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Kreisverwaltungsreferat/Verkehr/Verkehrssteuerung/Nur-bei-Gruen.html http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Kreisverwaltu...
fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
Or we are forced to act like adults. I know Germany has very strict driving laws. I think you can't use your horn for no good reason, can't give other drivers the finger, etc, or you'll be fined. And I think fines are proportional to the value of the car. I am not sure how much of this strict and high fine system extends to walking on the street rather than driving. But I suspect this type of system instills respect for the law. And Germans are rumored to be among the best drivers in Europe. In contrast Belgians, and most Southern Europeans are rumored to be bad drivers. Usually this is then blamed on culture. However, I think it's simply laws and regulations. The country I am from does not set fines based on the value of the car, does not fine "trivial" things like honking without reason, and actually the system to collect ticket fines is so broken that most of the time you don't have to bother. Shockingly we are known as bad drivers.
- ThePhysicist 14y ago
  Having the fines go up proportionally to the value of the car would be a hilarious idea, but unfortunately it's not true ;) Most fines have fixed values (typically starting at 10 €), but some are proportional to your income/salary, so for example you can get fined 20 days of salary (20 Tagessätze). Like that it's sure that, regardless of your income, the fine will always be financially painful to you.
  - fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
    Basing it on your income is even better than basing it on the value of the car.
morsch 14y ago
Germany has a general speed limit of 50 km/h in cities -- which seems to be pretty much a universal standard world wide --, and 30 km/h in many residential neighbourhoods. In some residential neighbourhoods there's a speed limit of walking speed and pedestrians enjoy permanent right of way. There are some people who're lobbying for the general speed limit in cities to be dropped to 30 km/h (safer, less noise), but sadly we're not there yet. And crossing a street when there's no light and no zebra crossing is not jaywalking - that's just crossing the street, and it's the legal way to do it as typically there is no light or a crossing around. And of course many people jaywalk all the time. I don't even but the think of the children argument -- if a kid is responsible enough to walk around in public traffic, they ought to be responsible enough to judge whether crossing a red light is safe, otherwise how would they deal with cases where there is no light? But I might be kidding myself there, and I usually don't jaywalk when there's kids around out of politeness if nothing else.
- esbwhat 14y ago
  The thing is that not all streets are created equal. On particularly dangerous corners there will be lights, and cars can come around the corner going maybe a bit too fast to stop, so it's important to obey them. When there is no light, that's usually indicative of a less busy street as well, where crossing at your own discretion is safer.
  - mxfh 14y ago
    As always, know you routes. It't arguably safe to cross 3rd tier roads with hindsight, yet anything higher in traffic hours is simply not worth it. For the typical pedestrian commute through Berlin you don't even have to cross a significant number of lights, if any at all, when traveling by means of U&S-Bahn and know which side of the station you have to exit on.

by OzzyB 14y ago

dlitwak 14y ago

there is the letter and the spirit of the law. I think the spirit of the law is what is usually important, and in the case when there is no car in sight and no one is walking across the street, that's what i was referring to. regardless, it's an example that I saw and thought represented the general mindset, and reflected what I saw and heard from Germans themselves about the state of the startup ecosystem.

cygx 14y ago
I don't find it particularly surprising: You tell your kids to only cross the street when the light turns green (or at zebra crossings), and it becomes habit even for adults. Of course jaywalking does happen (at least here in Frankfurt, and I'd guess it's the same for Berlin), but it's discouraged (Think of the Children[tm] [1]), and personally I see no harm in waiting the additional minute if I'm not in a hurry. [1] http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Kreisverwaltungsreferat/Verkehr/Verkehrssteuerung/Nur-bei-Gruen.html http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Kreisverwaltu...

fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago

Or we are forced to act like adults. I know Germany has very strict driving laws. I think you can't use your horn for no good reason, can't give other drivers the finger, etc, or you'll be fined. And I think fines are proportional to the value of the car. I am not sure how much of this strict and high fine system extends to walking on the street rather than driving. But I suspect this type of system instills respect for the law. And Germans are rumored to be among the best drivers in Europe. In contrast Belgians, and most Southern Europeans are rumored to be bad drivers. Usually this is then blamed on culture. However, I think it's simply laws and regulations. The country I am from does not set fines based on the value of the car, does not fine "trivial" things like honking without reason, and actually the system to collect ticket fines is so broken that most of the time you don't have to bother. Shockingly we are known as bad drivers.

ThePhysicist 14y ago
Having the fines go up proportionally to the value of the car would be a hilarious idea, but unfortunately it's not true ;) Most fines have fixed values (typically starting at 10 €), but some are proportional to your income/salary, so for example you can get fined 20 days of salary (20 Tagessätze). Like that it's sure that, regardless of your income, the fine will always be financially painful to you.
- fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
  Basing it on your income is even better than basing it on the value of the car.

morsch 14y ago

Germany has a general speed limit of 50 km/h in cities -- which seems to be pretty much a universal standard world wide --, and 30 km/h in many residential neighbourhoods. In some residential neighbourhoods there's a speed limit of walking speed and pedestrians enjoy permanent right of way. There are some people who're lobbying for the general speed limit in cities to be dropped to 30 km/h (safer, less noise), but sadly we're not there yet. And crossing a street when there's no light and no zebra crossing is not jaywalking - that's just crossing the street, and it's the legal way to do it as typically there is no light or a crossing around. And of course many people jaywalk all the time. I don't even but the think of the children argument -- if a kid is responsible enough to walk around in public traffic, they ought to be responsible enough to judge whether crossing a red light is safe, otherwise how would they deal with cases where there is no light? But I might be kidding myself there, and I usually don't jaywalk when there's kids around out of politeness if nothing else.

esbwhat 14y ago
The thing is that not all streets are created equal. On particularly dangerous corners there will be lights, and cars can come around the corner going maybe a bit too fast to stop, so it's important to obey them. When there is no light, that's usually indicative of a less busy street as well, where crossing at your own discretion is safer.
- mxfh 14y ago
  As always, know you routes. It't arguably safe to cross 3rd tier roads with hindsight, yet anything higher in traffic hours is simply not worth it. For the typical pedestrian commute through Berlin you don't even have to cross a significant number of lights, if any at all, when traveling by means of U&S-Bahn and know which side of the station you have to exit on.