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I will not review the legal literature because nowhere in my original comment was their mention of the law. I simply stated that this company did the right thin

I will not review the legal literature because nowhere in my original comment was their mention of the law. I simply stated that this company did the right thing. I attempted to explain to you what I meant by this, but for some reason you insist upon throwing legal documentation and precedents at me. In my second comment I attempted to describe to you the law as I have observed it, but as I said my knowledge of specific laws and precedents is limited. Just because you use these in an argument does not make you right. The simple fact that I do not have time to research and make this my life is the problem here. I am certain that I could find a dozen cases in support of this company's actions. The law is never applied consistently, thus there must be at least one legal precedent in support of my view. I do admit that I will not waste my time to find it. I am both a student and employed. Additionally, you probably live in a large city that follows these rules. The place where I live is not quite as pretty and perfect. People here get fired for looking at there boss incorrectly. I'm not sure my boss's view of reality is even influenced by the EEOC compliance manual. I do also acknowledge that I have not answered your questions. This is simply, as stated before, because I did not make this a legal statement and do not intend for it to be interpreted as such. I am not sure why you feel that you need laws to tell you what is right and wrong. Personally, I have internalized my beliefs on morality. What this woman did, even if it wasn't legal justification for termination of employment, was not morally correct. If the laws told me I had to support bullying and public humiliation, I would not be a law abiding citizen. Edited -To apply final statement.

dalke 14y ago
I did ask you to clarify 'When you say the company was "right", do you mean that as a moral statement independent of what the law says? Or do you actually think that the this was a legal workplace action?' Since the start of your response included "from my understanding of the law", I assumed we were solidly in the legal discussion. I now understand that your view is that concepts of "right" and "wrong" are independent of the law, and that a company can and should do what is "right" even though it is illegal. There's some justification for that view, but there are also penalties for those actions, should it come to court. There is also grave danger in that view, because not everyone has the same morality, and the different moralities may be in conflict. When there is a conflict, what happens? How is it resolved? Who decides? Now that we're talking about morality, your view is that "What this woman did, even if it wasn't legal justification for termination of employment, was not morally correct." You have the right to this opinion. However, what Richards did was legal, and you'll easily see people who support those actions is being morally correct. Does your moral view supersede her legal rights? No. Absolutely not, under the American system. Question: What happens with two sets of people have different moralities? What happens when they come into conflict? What happens if the conflict cannot be settled by the two sets of people? Answer: the law and the courts get involved. Yes, the law is imperfect. But the system is not so fragile that a few imperfections send the entire system tumbling down, which is what you suppose. The law is not a set of axiomatic principles that must be self-consistent. Judges help resolve those internal conflicts. So do legislatures. And voters. "People here get fired for looking at there boss incorrectly. I'm not sure my boss's view of reality is even influenced by the EEOC compliance manual." A boss may fire someone for looking at them incorrectly. Most workplaces place have at-will employment, where an employee may be fired at the whim of the boss. However, as I've stressed, acting on some of those whims are illegal, and a legally defensible reason cannot be used as a pretext for an illegal reason. I get the point now. You're a student. You're likely not a law student or a philosophy student, nor a student of some other field which requires you to examine your own moral views or help resolve conflicts between different people. That's why you think that your own views of morality take precedence. But as you make your way in the world, please remember that just because you think something is right doesn't mean that it is right. If you can't explain your position other than "that's the way I believe" then you probably don't understand your own views. "If the laws told me I had to support bullying and public humiliation, I would not be a law abiding citizen." Nice strawman argument. The laws nor this situation require that you support bullying or public humiliation. Just like they don't require you to support a company which breaks employment law, though that is likely what you are doing. This is all part of your First Amendment right to free speech. Since you want to open up can of anti-humiliation worms, then have you considered how you might define public humiliation? For examples culled from the web: "Hi, I live in a condo and my dog pooped in the lobby. I cleaned it up and threw it in the trash can, and the next morning the HOA manager placed a poster in every floor(21),elevator, hall way and entrances of my fiance and my dog saying these people do not take care of the property and will be fined, telling us to be careful. My fiance feels so embarrassed she can't even walk into the condo and wants to move. What can I do?" Do you think the HOA manager can be sued for public humiliation? (or that some other social response should take place?) " went into a store the clerk told me that I was now banned from the store she accused me of stealing the last time I was in the store I then asked her to rewind the camras to prove the truth she said no she saw me she then called the police anyway it was a store full of people and I was completely humiliated I called the head office and soon the truth will come out" Do you think the clerk or the store should be sued for public humiliation? "My bf was pulled over after picking me up from work,for no front plate.( the police station is right next door.)The officer ran both our names said he had two warrants and i had one .Arrested him, said bc i had worked next door for 5 yrs he was giving me time to get taken care of.I thanked him and met them at the station to pay.When i come up w enough for the 2 he had they tell there is a 3rd for a lrg amt.so i ask for a list of bondsman.then come back and say its a lower amt.i start crying bc they keep coming and changing everything everytime im ready to pay.then the chief pops around a corner and is yelling that he is going to arrest me. he scared me so bad i lost my control and am now standing in my own urine.i walk out my bf calls and says they told him what i did.feels like allknow" Can this person sue the police for public humiliation? I really hope the answer to all of these questions is "yes", otherwise I will feel personally and publicly humiliated. (Or not. ;) You see how difficult it is to say when something is "public humiliation"? You leave it up to the person being humiliated to define the severity, and the person with the most humiliation wins! Someone who is publicly humiliated by knock-knock jokes (due to an old door injury) can force everyone to stop telling them. Do you really want that level of mandated civility? Where is the balance between 'public humility' and free speech? In the US, the balance is weighted very much toward free speech. Because that's the law, and because to do much otherwise leads into oppressive madness.
- bigalo93 14y ago
  I must ask you a question. Do you not understand that this is not an argument? I am not trying to refute what you are saying in earnest. I simply am trying to express my opinion. You believe I am inexperienced, but I must ask another question. What do you do? If you like fallacies look up argumentum verbosium.
  - dalke 14y ago
    And I am trying for someone to tell me where my logic is wrong. Otherwise I worry that I may have reviewed the evidence but drawn a completely wrong conclusion. But it seems that most of the people involved in the discussions I read want to have an emotional argument, unsupported by any explainable moral or legal framework. And that annoys me to no end because our current legal framework seems to be a pretty good one for most parts of the discussion. Can someone be fired for telling a sexual joke at a conference? Yes. Most employment is at-will, telling sexual jokes is not a protected action, and there's nothing which implies that it's a pretext for some other protected action. Can someone take a picture of others at a Python conference, without their permission? Yes, excepting certain narrow legal limits. Can someone 'name and shame'? Yes, truthful accounts are protected under the First Amendment. Is "name and shame" ethical? The law just says that it's legal, since there's no slander involved. But I don't want to get into the name-and-shame topic because a quick scan shows that there's no effective way to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable publish shaming and still have free speech rights. At least, I can't come up with one and no one has described one that looks the first bit achievable. Is it okay to fire someone who files a report about sexual discrimination? Only if it's a false or spurious report, and the benefit of the doubt is given to the person who makes the report. Otherwise it's a protected action. Can someone be fired for not being "unprofessional"? Yes, unless it's a pretext for retaliation against a protected action, in which case the answer is no. See, with the law in mind this discussion seems a whole lot easier. And with it in mind the questions are things like "what moral principles should guide changes to the law?", "how would changes to the law affect previous decisions?", and "what can we do to improve things without changing the law?" But saying, eg, that it's acceptable to fire Richards for taking pictures of people at a conference without their permission is to ignore the law and society expectations entirely and to live in a fantasy world. What do I do? I'm a self-employed person who writes software for the computational chemistry industry. I'm also a member of the PSF, which is the organization that sponsors PyCon. Over the last few years, we've been struggling with having a code of conduct for meetings like this. As such, I have a personal interest in understanding what went on, so that I might be involved in affecting change. Before last week, I had very little interest in this topic. And as for argumentum verbosium, were it so easy. Then I would just ask to highlight the flaws in my fallacious logic and be done with it. But, no, I have a chronic case of logorrhoea. My Match.com profile was "intimidating" for its length, and I've been told I write very long and detailed emails.

dalke 14y ago

I did ask you to clarify 'When you say the company was "right", do you mean that as a moral statement independent of what the law says? Or do you actually think that the this was a legal workplace action?' Since the start of your response included "from my understanding of the law", I assumed we were solidly in the legal discussion. I now understand that your view is that concepts of "right" and "wrong" are independent of the law, and that a company can and should do what is "right" even though it is illegal. There's some justification for that view, but there are also penalties for those actions, should it come to court. There is also grave danger in that view, because not everyone has the same morality, and the different moralities may be in conflict. When there is a conflict, what happens? How is it resolved? Who decides? Now that we're talking about morality, your view is that "What this woman did, even if it wasn't legal justification for termination of employment, was not morally correct." You have the right to this opinion. However, what Richards did was legal, and you'll easily see people who support those actions is being morally correct. Does your moral view supersede her legal rights? No. Absolutely not, under the American system. Question: What happens with two sets of people have different moralities? What happens when they come into conflict? What happens if the conflict cannot be settled by the two sets of people? Answer: the law and the courts get involved. Yes, the law is imperfect. But the system is not so fragile that a few imperfections send the entire system tumbling down, which is what you suppose. The law is not a set of axiomatic principles that must be self-consistent. Judges help resolve those internal conflicts. So do legislatures. And voters. "People here get fired for looking at there boss incorrectly. I'm not sure my boss's view of reality is even influenced by the EEOC compliance manual." A boss may fire someone for looking at them incorrectly. Most workplaces place have at-will employment, where an employee may be fired at the whim of the boss. However, as I've stressed, acting on some of those whims are illegal, and a legally defensible reason cannot be used as a pretext for an illegal reason. I get the point now. You're a student. You're likely not a law student or a philosophy student, nor a student of some other field which requires you to examine your own moral views or help resolve conflicts between different people. That's why you think that your own views of morality take precedence. But as you make your way in the world, please remember that just because you think something is right doesn't mean that it is right. If you can't explain your position other than "that's the way I believe" then you probably don't understand your own views. "If the laws told me I had to support bullying and public humiliation, I would not be a law abiding citizen." Nice strawman argument. The laws nor this situation require that you support bullying or public humiliation. Just like they don't require you to support a company which breaks employment law, though that is likely what you are doing. This is all part of your First Amendment right to free speech. Since you want to open up can of anti-humiliation worms, then have you considered how you might define public humiliation? For examples culled from the web: "Hi, I live in a condo and my dog pooped in the lobby. I cleaned it up and threw it in the trash can, and the next morning the HOA manager placed a poster in every floor(21),elevator, hall way and entrances of my fiance and my dog saying these people do not take care of the property and will be fined, telling us to be careful. My fiance feels so embarrassed she can't even walk into the condo and wants to move. What can I do?" Do you think the HOA manager can be sued for public humiliation? (or that some other social response should take place?) " went into a store the clerk told me that I was now banned from the store she accused me of stealing the last time I was in the store I then asked her to rewind the camras to prove the truth she said no she saw me she then called the police anyway it was a store full of people and I was completely humiliated I called the head office and soon the truth will come out" Do you think the clerk or the store should be sued for public humiliation? "My bf was pulled over after picking me up from work,for no front plate.( the police station is right next door.)The officer ran both our names said he had two warrants and i had one .Arrested him, said bc i had worked next door for 5 yrs he was giving me time to get taken care of.I thanked him and met them at the station to pay.When i come up w enough for the 2 he had they tell there is a 3rd for a lrg amt.so i ask for a list of bondsman.then come back and say its a lower amt.i start crying bc they keep coming and changing everything everytime im ready to pay.then the chief pops around a corner and is yelling that he is going to arrest me. he scared me so bad i lost my control and am now standing in my own urine.i walk out my bf calls and says they told him what i did.feels like allknow" Can this person sue the police for public humiliation? I really hope the answer to all of these questions is "yes", otherwise I will feel personally and publicly humiliated. (Or not. ;) You see how difficult it is to say when something is "public humiliation"? You leave it up to the person being humiliated to define the severity, and the person with the most humiliation wins! Someone who is publicly humiliated by knock-knock jokes (due to an old door injury) can force everyone to stop telling them. Do you really want that level of mandated civility? Where is the balance between 'public humility' and free speech? In the US, the balance is weighted very much toward free speech. Because that's the law, and because to do much otherwise leads into oppressive madness.

bigalo93 14y ago
I must ask you a question. Do you not understand that this is not an argument? I am not trying to refute what you are saying in earnest. I simply am trying to express my opinion. You believe I am inexperienced, but I must ask another question. What do you do? If you like fallacies look up argumentum verbosium.
- dalke 14y ago
  And I am trying for someone to tell me where my logic is wrong. Otherwise I worry that I may have reviewed the evidence but drawn a completely wrong conclusion. But it seems that most of the people involved in the discussions I read want to have an emotional argument, unsupported by any explainable moral or legal framework. And that annoys me to no end because our current legal framework seems to be a pretty good one for most parts of the discussion. Can someone be fired for telling a sexual joke at a conference? Yes. Most employment is at-will, telling sexual jokes is not a protected action, and there's nothing which implies that it's a pretext for some other protected action. Can someone take a picture of others at a Python conference, without their permission? Yes, excepting certain narrow legal limits. Can someone 'name and shame'? Yes, truthful accounts are protected under the First Amendment. Is "name and shame" ethical? The law just says that it's legal, since there's no slander involved. But I don't want to get into the name-and-shame topic because a quick scan shows that there's no effective way to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable publish shaming and still have free speech rights. At least, I can't come up with one and no one has described one that looks the first bit achievable. Is it okay to fire someone who files a report about sexual discrimination? Only if it's a false or spurious report, and the benefit of the doubt is given to the person who makes the report. Otherwise it's a protected action. Can someone be fired for not being "unprofessional"? Yes, unless it's a pretext for retaliation against a protected action, in which case the answer is no. See, with the law in mind this discussion seems a whole lot easier. And with it in mind the questions are things like "what moral principles should guide changes to the law?", "how would changes to the law affect previous decisions?", and "what can we do to improve things without changing the law?" But saying, eg, that it's acceptable to fire Richards for taking pictures of people at a conference without their permission is to ignore the law and society expectations entirely and to live in a fantasy world. What do I do? I'm a self-employed person who writes software for the computational chemistry industry. I'm also a member of the PSF, which is the organization that sponsors PyCon. Over the last few years, we've been struggling with having a code of conduct for meetings like this. As such, I have a personal interest in understanding what went on, so that I might be involved in affecting change. Before last week, I had very little interest in this topic. And as for argumentum verbosium, were it so easy. Then I would just ask to highlight the flaws in my fallacious logic and be done with it. But, no, I have a chronic case of logorrhoea. My Match.com profile was "intimidating" for its length, and I've been told I write very long and detailed emails.