6 ms·

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League educatio

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege. You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but little money or academic skill (and indeed, these are handicaps!), and the person born into the world with similar handicaps, who has already overcome them, preventing us from actually comparing their circumstances. When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had.

jiggy2011 14y ago
If you are born with a high IQ and a wealthy background that is more due to luck than any extra effort you have put in. Your ancestors effectively overcame these obstacles on your behalf, so in essence that is a form of privilege; just a different type.
- rmc 14y ago
  Just because you have privilege doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's not your fault. You shouldn't really feel guilty. It's just luck a lot of the time. Luck can take away privilege as well. One unluck car accident can make you paralyzed. There goes your able bodies privilege then. And not everyone has the same obstacles (that's the point of privilege), so you can't say for sure that your white ancestors had the same struggles (say) to get university educated as a current black female person today.
  - jtbigwoo 14y ago
    No one has argued in this thread that you and I are bad peeple because we're priviledged. What they're saying is that if we are not aware of that priviledge you are living in ignorance and should not be surprised when less priviledged people don't take us seriously. Take Rosseau's famous example of priviledged ignorance: "If the peasants have no bread, let them eat cake." If we are not aware of our priviledge we appear just as ridiculous as that French princess. Also, I'm pretty sure my white ancestors never turned on the tv and saw a state governor standing at the door of a university trying to block white people from getting in.
- beatpanda 14y ago
  All forms of what is called "privilege" are unearned advantages you get by being, in some way that you didn't choose, part of the dominant group in society. European cultural dominance is also, in a sense, work that was done "on my behalf" by my ancestors, whether I wanted that or not. My point is to say it's multi-dimensional. A black lesbian attempting to get an Ivy League education, even if her parents can essentially purchase it, is still going to face significant obstacles to success. There are a plethora of white male role models to look to for inspiration in nearly any professional field (even basketball!). Is the same true for black lesbians? What about fitting in at this theoretical Ivy League school once she gets there — is it going to be full of people like her, who she can relate to and learn from, or is it going to be alienating? And how will that affect her likelihood to finish school? Lots of people with money and good educational pedigrees have to face the accusation their education was simply purchased by their parents, they they didn't get in "on merit". Our protagonist has to face not only that accusation, but the additional, much more common accusation that "affirmative action" got her a spot in this Ivy League institution. So when and if she graduates, she will have worked harder and persevered through more than a white guy with the same wealth and IQ. And the point of talking about all this isn't to make you feel bad, or to say that one group is better than another — it's just to create understanding.
  - GHFigs 14y ago
    There are a plethora of white male role models to look to for inspiration in nearly any professional field (even basketball!). Is the same true for black lesbians? Black lesbians are as free to look up to white male role models as anybody else, just as I'm free to not care about someone's race, gender, or sexuality when I look to them as a role model. (Or religion, ethnicity, etc.) Lots of people with money and good educational pedigrees have to face the accusation their education was simply purchased by their parents You wouldn't say that poor people are privileged though, would you? This is where the concept gets shaky, because one person's challenge does not always equate to another person's advantage. And the point of talking about all this isn't to make you feel bad, or to say that one group is better than another — it's just to create understanding. You might reconsider what kind of understanding is created when you accuse people of not working as hard or persevering through as much as other people. Nothing is more alienating to hard-working non-bigots (of which there are many among the privileged) than to be accused of secretly being lazy bigots.
btilly 14y ago
When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had. That would be better than the world we have. Until I moved to the USA and observed the process first hand at an Ivy League school, I would never have credited the claim that there are people whose whole lives are based on having won the affirmative action lottery, and then playing the race card. This ticks me off, because having known such people I can no longer discount the possibility that any FUTURE minority person that I meet with the trappings of success is one of them. Most aren't. Most got there on their own merits, against all odds. But the nature of business is that a bad hire frequently costs much more than the opportunity cost of waiting to make the right hire. And that pushes you to not give the benefit of the doubt. In particular I witnessed watching a black woman who had played the race card her whole life getting kicked out with a masters in math despite objectively knowing less math than I expected from undergrads. At the same time a much more competent white man who had a block in ONE subject area (and enormous success in many others) would have been kicked out with no degree at all if I had not taken a month of my personal time out to teach him all of topology. And a third person, an undergraduate black from England who had never received any preference, took an extra quarter to finish a well-earned masters on top of his BSc. All three frustrate me in different ways. I hated seeing the ridiculously easy qual she was given compared to the rest of us, in written take home format yet, with a blind eye turned towards the fact that she was begging other grad students to do it for her. At the same time a student who had worked much harder and done much more got no breaks at all from the system. And in parallel I saw a truly deserving minority student, and know that for the rest of his life upon first meeting someone like him, I'll need to unfairly suspect his deserved accomplishments until I know him better. Yes, I recognize the historical injustice. Yes, I recognize the barriers. But our current affirmative action policies give some a lottery ticket at the cost of perpetuating the problems into future generations. That's not what we need to do.
- sophacles 14y ago
  It seems that your frustration is that some people now have a privilege they previously didn't have. This makes sense, but the very first statement you said in light of it suggests that you are turning a blind eye to other privileges. To say that the way things work with some people getting privileges and others not - therefore having to work harder - is ideal, then complaining that some people have to work harder and others not (but in different categories) is somewhat hypocritical. Basically - your response to a post about how certain unprivileged groups have to work harder is ideal. Then you rand about how different unprivileged groups have to work harder, and how horrible it is. Whether or not it is your intent, it comes off as defending a status quo based on you not liking the membership conditions (or don't qualify for them) of other privilege.

jiggy2011 14y ago

If you are born with a high IQ and a wealthy background that is more due to luck than any extra effort you have put in. Your ancestors effectively overcame these obstacles on your behalf, so in essence that is a form of privilege; just a different type.

rmc 14y ago
Just because you have privilege doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's not your fault. You shouldn't really feel guilty. It's just luck a lot of the time. Luck can take away privilege as well. One unluck car accident can make you paralyzed. There goes your able bodies privilege then. And not everyone has the same obstacles (that's the point of privilege), so you can't say for sure that your white ancestors had the same struggles (say) to get university educated as a current black female person today.
- jtbigwoo 14y ago
  No one has argued in this thread that you and I are bad peeple because we're priviledged. What they're saying is that if we are not aware of that priviledge you are living in ignorance and should not be surprised when less priviledged people don't take us seriously. Take Rosseau's famous example of priviledged ignorance: "If the peasants have no bread, let them eat cake." If we are not aware of our priviledge we appear just as ridiculous as that French princess. Also, I'm pretty sure my white ancestors never turned on the tv and saw a state governor standing at the door of a university trying to block white people from getting in.
beatpanda 14y ago
All forms of what is called "privilege" are unearned advantages you get by being, in some way that you didn't choose, part of the dominant group in society. European cultural dominance is also, in a sense, work that was done "on my behalf" by my ancestors, whether I wanted that or not. My point is to say it's multi-dimensional. A black lesbian attempting to get an Ivy League education, even if her parents can essentially purchase it, is still going to face significant obstacles to success. There are a plethora of white male role models to look to for inspiration in nearly any professional field (even basketball!). Is the same true for black lesbians? What about fitting in at this theoretical Ivy League school once she gets there — is it going to be full of people like her, who she can relate to and learn from, or is it going to be alienating? And how will that affect her likelihood to finish school? Lots of people with money and good educational pedigrees have to face the accusation their education was simply purchased by their parents, they they didn't get in "on merit". Our protagonist has to face not only that accusation, but the additional, much more common accusation that "affirmative action" got her a spot in this Ivy League institution. So when and if she graduates, she will have worked harder and persevered through more than a white guy with the same wealth and IQ. And the point of talking about all this isn't to make you feel bad, or to say that one group is better than another — it's just to create understanding.
- GHFigs 14y ago
  There are a plethora of white male role models to look to for inspiration in nearly any professional field (even basketball!). Is the same true for black lesbians? Black lesbians are as free to look up to white male role models as anybody else, just as I'm free to not care about someone's race, gender, or sexuality when I look to them as a role model. (Or religion, ethnicity, etc.) Lots of people with money and good educational pedigrees have to face the accusation their education was simply purchased by their parents You wouldn't say that poor people are privileged though, would you? This is where the concept gets shaky, because one person's challenge does not always equate to another person's advantage. And the point of talking about all this isn't to make you feel bad, or to say that one group is better than another — it's just to create understanding. You might reconsider what kind of understanding is created when you accuse people of not working as hard or persevering through as much as other people. Nothing is more alienating to hard-working non-bigots (of which there are many among the privileged) than to be accused of secretly being lazy bigots.

btilly 14y ago

When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had. That would be better than the world we have. Until I moved to the USA and observed the process first hand at an Ivy League school, I would never have credited the claim that there are people whose whole lives are based on having won the affirmative action lottery, and then playing the race card. This ticks me off, because having known such people I can no longer discount the possibility that any FUTURE minority person that I meet with the trappings of success is one of them. Most aren't. Most got there on their own merits, against all odds. But the nature of business is that a bad hire frequently costs much more than the opportunity cost of waiting to make the right hire. And that pushes you to not give the benefit of the doubt. In particular I witnessed watching a black woman who had played the race card her whole life getting kicked out with a masters in math despite objectively knowing less math than I expected from undergrads. At the same time a much more competent white man who had a block in ONE subject area (and enormous success in many others) would have been kicked out with no degree at all if I had not taken a month of my personal time out to teach him all of topology. And a third person, an undergraduate black from England who had never received any preference, took an extra quarter to finish a well-earned masters on top of his BSc. All three frustrate me in different ways. I hated seeing the ridiculously easy qual she was given compared to the rest of us, in written take home format yet, with a blind eye turned towards the fact that she was begging other grad students to do it for her. At the same time a student who had worked much harder and done much more got no breaks at all from the system. And in parallel I saw a truly deserving minority student, and know that for the rest of his life upon first meeting someone like him, I'll need to unfairly suspect his deserved accomplishments until I know him better. Yes, I recognize the historical injustice. Yes, I recognize the barriers. But our current affirmative action policies give some a lottery ticket at the cost of perpetuating the problems into future generations. That's not what we need to do.

sophacles 14y ago
It seems that your frustration is that some people now have a privilege they previously didn't have. This makes sense, but the very first statement you said in light of it suggests that you are turning a blind eye to other privileges. To say that the way things work with some people getting privileges and others not - therefore having to work harder - is ideal, then complaining that some people have to work harder and others not (but in different categories) is somewhat hypocritical. Basically - your response to a post about how certain unprivileged groups have to work harder is ideal. Then you rand about how different unprivileged groups have to work harder, and how horrible it is. Whether or not it is your intent, it comes off as defending a status quo based on you not liking the membership conditions (or don't qualify for them) of other privilege.