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Even giving all benefit of the doubt, what's the solution then? If you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control, wha

Even giving all benefit of the doubt, what's the solution then? If you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control, what else are you obligated to do?

stormbrew 14y ago
Looking for a 'solution' is the wrong angle to take. There is no easy answer to any question that involves privilege. You can't make a decision about how it can be fixed and just fix it. It's an ongoing process and a living conversation. That's why he says that it's not just about shutting up when you're called out on your privilege, it's also about listening. Accept that there are things in the world, and positions people are in, that you can't just argue out of existence.
- mikecane 14y ago
  People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances. I think this idea is what tends to get swept under the rug when pointing to some overarching Privilege.
  - mikecane 14y ago
    Sure, you can downvote me but any married man will tell you that it's always best to have the wife ask for something from someone else because women are perceived as being "nicer" and usually get such favors. When men ask, it's either intimidating to a woman or invokes a power trip with another man.
    - unalone 14y ago
      People who talk a lot about "patriarchy" will point out that a society in which men are made out to be strong and aggressive and dominant doesn't just hurt women. It hurts all the men who would rather be reasonable and mild-mannered and effeminate too. That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. It's further proof of it.
      - mikecane 14y ago
        >>>That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. I never said nor intended to imply there wasn't. But there's imbalance in every system too. Which now makes it sound like I'm saying "Just shut up," which is really why I tend to avoid discussions like this because they become No Win. For everyone. Gah.
        unalone 14y ago
        Haha, indeed. Nobody here feels victorious. It's a lot of trekking through mud all around. Anyway, I think that the fact that systems have imbalance is why we need to talk frequently about what imbalance exists, and how we might fix it. It's also why we should stop this irritating habit of turning everything into a system of processes and functions that don't allow for human error. Plenty of people in the tech community think that a series of rules is the end-all be-all cure to every problem, and refuse to admit that rules often cause as many problems as they solve. Learning to listen and empathize with other people is a more valuable trait than ever, because there are more ways than ever to get away with not doing it.
        mikecane 14y ago
        I think to cut to the chase: Put yourself in someone else's shoes. People used to be taught that. They need to be again.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    One thing that I've learned as I've become familiar with the concept of privilege is that if you think something is getting swept under the rug, it's usually just that you haven't found the huge pile of analysis and discussion of it. "People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances" is pretty closely tied to the concept of intersectionality. And yes, there are specific situations where generally unprivileged groups have privilege over generally privileged groups. But there are two main reasons nobody wants to focus on those situations: 1. Those situations are typically so minor and so rare that addressing them just isn't a priority, 2. The same prejudice that causes those situations is generally far more problematic in the opposite direction. You might want to read this, if you haven't: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-about-the-men-chapter-1-introduction-and-principles/ http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-about-the-me... . It's aimed at a male audience that is basically unfamiliar with privilege, so anyone who's well read on the subject is likely to cringe at some of their oversimplifications. What's interesting about it is that it uses the point that men are hurt by sexism as a call for more men to get involved with feminism.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
hurfdurferson 14y ago
You are not obligated to do anything. If, however, you believe groups that use 100% of the available sapients will always outcompete groups that use 50% of them you will probably, of your own conscience, gravitate towards those groups that do not tacitly exclude those 50% and avoid those that do. When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy for me to choose.
- Sambdala 14y ago
  "you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control" If you subscribe to the quoted as well as what you said and try to only surround yourself with people that act in a similar manner, then isn't that going to happen automatically? "When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy for me to choose." I don't think there's two black & white sides here that neatly contain everyone, and I don't think by shunning those who call for violence you have to implicitly endorse whatever the target of that call to violence is advocating.
rmc 14y ago
(a) You may think you don't treat anyone differently, but you may actually do it. Everyone makes mistakes. (b) If you don't, then speak up when you see other people do it. Tell people that unacceptable actions are, well, unacceptible. Silence is often taken for tacit approval.

Even giving all benefit of the doubt, what's the solution then? If you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control, what else are you obligated to do?

stormbrew 14y ago

Looking for a 'solution' is the wrong angle to take. There is no easy answer to any question that involves privilege. You can't make a decision about how it can be fixed and just fix it. It's an ongoing process and a living conversation. That's why he says that it's not just about shutting up when you're called out on your privilege, it's also about listening. Accept that there are things in the world, and positions people are in, that you can't just argue out of existence.

mikecane 14y ago
People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances. I think this idea is what tends to get swept under the rug when pointing to some overarching Privilege.
- mikecane 14y ago
  Sure, you can downvote me but any married man will tell you that it's always best to have the wife ask for something from someone else because women are perceived as being "nicer" and usually get such favors. When men ask, it's either intimidating to a woman or invokes a power trip with another man.
  - unalone 14y ago
    People who talk a lot about "patriarchy" will point out that a society in which men are made out to be strong and aggressive and dominant doesn't just hurt women. It hurts all the men who would rather be reasonable and mild-mannered and effeminate too. That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. It's further proof of it.
    - mikecane 14y ago
      >>>That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. I never said nor intended to imply there wasn't. But there's imbalance in every system too. Which now makes it sound like I'm saying "Just shut up," which is really why I tend to avoid discussions like this because they become No Win. For everyone. Gah.
      - unalone 14y ago
        Haha, indeed. Nobody here feels victorious. It's a lot of trekking through mud all around. Anyway, I think that the fact that systems have imbalance is why we need to talk frequently about what imbalance exists, and how we might fix it. It's also why we should stop this irritating habit of turning everything into a system of processes and functions that don't allow for human error. Plenty of people in the tech community think that a series of rules is the end-all be-all cure to every problem, and refuse to admit that rules often cause as many problems as they solve. Learning to listen and empathize with other people is a more valuable trait than ever, because there are more ways than ever to get away with not doing it.
        mikecane 14y ago
        I think to cut to the chase: Put yourself in someone else's shoes. People used to be taught that. They need to be again.
- mistercow 14y ago
  One thing that I've learned as I've become familiar with the concept of privilege is that if you think something is getting swept under the rug, it's usually just that you haven't found the huge pile of analysis and discussion of it. "People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances" is pretty closely tied to the concept of intersectionality. And yes, there are specific situations where generally unprivileged groups have privilege over generally privileged groups. But there are two main reasons nobody wants to focus on those situations: 1. Those situations are typically so minor and so rare that addressing them just isn't a priority, 2. The same prejudice that causes those situations is generally far more problematic in the opposite direction. You might want to read this, if you haven't: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-about-the-men-chapter-1-introduction-and-principles/ http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-about-the-me... . It's aimed at a male audience that is basically unfamiliar with privilege, so anyone who's well read on the subject is likely to cringe at some of their oversimplifications. What's interesting about it is that it uses the point that men are hurt by sexism as a call for more men to get involved with feminism.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

hurfdurferson 14y ago

You are not obligated to do anything. If, however, you believe groups that use 100% of the available sapients will always outcompete groups that use 50% of them you will probably, of your own conscience, gravitate towards those groups that do not tacitly exclude those 50% and avoid those that do. When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy for me to choose.

Sambdala 14y ago
"you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control" If you subscribe to the quoted as well as what you said and try to only surround yourself with people that act in a similar manner, then isn't that going to happen automatically? "When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy for me to choose." I don't think there's two black & white sides here that neatly contain everyone, and I don't think by shunning those who call for violence you have to implicitly endorse whatever the target of that call to violence is advocating.

rmc 14y ago

(a) You may think you don't treat anyone differently, but you may actually do it. Everyone makes mistakes. (b) If you don't, then speak up when you see other people do it. Tell people that unacceptable actions are, well, unacceptible. Silence is often taken for tacit approval.