4 ms·

among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs

by rmc 14y ago

among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs? Isn't that a symptom. Most feminists don't "blame men", but "blame gender roles". It's just most gender roles significantly benefit a lot of men (and harm a small amount of other men).

Tichy 14y ago
For various reasons. Probably they tend to have in mind that they need more flexibility for when they have children. Also that they might have a husband who provides main income. I don't know if people have to be pressured into having more time for their family, though. I think it is more having the option vs not having the option. I'd love to have the option as a man, but in general it is a privilege of women or rich people (not having to work). Income is just one measurement, health and life satisfactions are others. Are men really so well off if you consider those? Also, don't know about the US, but in my country women automatically get half of what their husbands earn. So they can go to Yoga class every day and still have a good income. Are they really so bad off? (edit: yoga class sounds snarky, what I mean is: women live longer than men, priorizing health over income might play a part). Also, if you say "pressured into bad jobs", what is the punishment for not choosing a bad job?
superjambo 14y ago
I think it would be because women tend to value the economic worth of potential mates more than men value the economic worth of potential mates. So any man choosing higher discomfort for more pay isn't just getting more money he's also improving his chance of finding a mate. Meanwhile women have a smaller incentive to take discomfort since they will not get the compensation of enhanced attractiveness.
- rmc 14y ago
  Except that most of the high paying jobs aren't physically discomforting (e.g. sitting in a nice office all day), and there are loads of jobs that are poorly paying that are very uncomfortable (prostitution, cleaning toilets, etc.). So your theory doesn't match reality.
  - malandrew 14y ago
    The job someone earns at the end isn't discomforting, but getting to the point where you deserve that job based on merit and acquired skills is more discomforting. A four year engineering degree is far more "discomforting" than a four year sociology degree.
  - superjambo 14y ago
    Sorry I was not talking about physical discomfort but all negative aspects of a job. Men have a greater incentive to seek high pay & status at the price of longer commute / longer hours. Women do not in my experience value pay as highly and consider the (non-monetary) costs more carefully than men.
bloaf 14y ago
My wife has expressed some interest in learning to program. I asked her why she never took any programming classes in high school or college (aside from the little bit of Matlab they gave to most freshmen interested in technical fields.) She said that in high school she wasn't even aware it was an option. No one ever thought to suggest it to her, they just assumed she wouldn't be interested. Once she got to college, she therefore felt like she was already behind; that everyone else already knew way more that she did and that she wouldn't be able to keep up in an elective class. It wasn't an oppressive culture or dongle jokes that kept her out of programming, it was just the assumption by everyone around her that girls generally are not interested in computers.
- rmc 14y ago
  It wasn't an oppressive culture Not offering someone a potential carrer path just because of their gender seems a bit opressive to me. Sexualised content at tech events just reenforced the idea that "programming isn't for women". Imagine a woman at a tech event where ther'es a lot of straight male locaker room jokes, and the organisers do nothing ans say there's nothing wrong going on, she'll come out of it thinking tech is for men.
- Crake 14y ago
  Plenty of people without any access to programming classes manage to teach themselves. If she was interested, she would have found a way. Just having access to college classes puts her ahead of most of america, honestly. Most people in America aren't lucky enough to have that sort of privilege. (as much as I hate that word) I don't want to make too many assumptions about someone I've never met, but from here it seems likely that it wasn't an oppressive culture that kept her out, it was the lack of enough innate interest to kick over into actively learning more about it.
Tichy 14y ago
Apart from what I said in my other reply, I suppose it is possible that a lot of women don't reflect their options and just choose the traditional paths society expects them to. If the 77% discussion makes more women reflect and choose professions with higher pay, fine. I just reject the notion of female victimhood and male oppression. However, it might really be a bit complicated. For example to get a degree costs the same no matter if you are going to work part time or full time. So investing into higher education already is a bigger gamble for women, if they expect they might have kids at some point. I suspect women are not stupid but chose their jobs smartly.
Crake 14y ago
Men have to earn enough money to support themselves and their potential spouse if they want to attract a mate, or even just generally be considered not a complete and total failure. Women can just marry someone after college and make the husband pay off all of their college loan debt for their women's studies major or whatever. Men have to choose more carefully, because they're the ones who have to pay off whatever debt they incur. (This also goes for lesbians as well, who can't expect their significant other to pay for all their things just because they are female, because their SO is also one.) I don't know that having all that societal pressure to make money is really a benefit for men. Women have far more options with career paths these days, and very rarely have to worry about money. It's totally socially acceptable to let their family or boyfriend support their existence. This is why you can easily find "professional artists" who write in their little blog that they "make their living" off of etsy when you can easily see they've made a total of a whopping $150 from their shop this month. I don't think it's fair at all to blame men for women making less money than men. Most women have the luxury of being able to afford not making much (or any) money and still do whatever they feel like/not have to worry about starving/housing/etc.
- jurassic 14y ago
  > Women can just marry someone after college and make the husband pay off all of their college loan debt for their women's studies major or whatever. > Women have far more options with career paths these days, and very rarely have to worry about money. That's some first class trolling there.
  - Crake 14y ago
    Not trolling. I've seen my female friends do this many times/seen my male friends have to do this for their gfs/fiancees/etc. People have really different standards of what's acceptable based on a person's biological sex. Again, note that it's something that's not a given in gay relationships, because they don't usually follow heterosexual cultural scripts. I wish people would study it more because I think it's potentially a really interesting way to investigate heterosexual gender roles and norms.

by rmc 14y ago

Tichy 14y ago

For various reasons. Probably they tend to have in mind that they need more flexibility for when they have children. Also that they might have a husband who provides main income. I don't know if people have to be pressured into having more time for their family, though. I think it is more having the option vs not having the option. I'd love to have the option as a man, but in general it is a privilege of women or rich people (not having to work). Income is just one measurement, health and life satisfactions are others. Are men really so well off if you consider those? Also, don't know about the US, but in my country women automatically get half of what their husbands earn. So they can go to Yoga class every day and still have a good income. Are they really so bad off? (edit: yoga class sounds snarky, what I mean is: women live longer than men, priorizing health over income might play a part). Also, if you say "pressured into bad jobs", what is the punishment for not choosing a bad job?

superjambo 14y ago

I think it would be because women tend to value the economic worth of potential mates more than men value the economic worth of potential mates. So any man choosing higher discomfort for more pay isn't just getting more money he's also improving his chance of finding a mate. Meanwhile women have a smaller incentive to take discomfort since they will not get the compensation of enhanced attractiveness.

rmc 14y ago
Except that most of the high paying jobs aren't physically discomforting (e.g. sitting in a nice office all day), and there are loads of jobs that are poorly paying that are very uncomfortable (prostitution, cleaning toilets, etc.). So your theory doesn't match reality.
- malandrew 14y ago
  The job someone earns at the end isn't discomforting, but getting to the point where you deserve that job based on merit and acquired skills is more discomforting. A four year engineering degree is far more "discomforting" than a four year sociology degree.
- superjambo 14y ago
  Sorry I was not talking about physical discomfort but all negative aspects of a job. Men have a greater incentive to seek high pay & status at the price of longer commute / longer hours. Women do not in my experience value pay as highly and consider the (non-monetary) costs more carefully than men.

bloaf 14y ago

My wife has expressed some interest in learning to program. I asked her why she never took any programming classes in high school or college (aside from the little bit of Matlab they gave to most freshmen interested in technical fields.) She said that in high school she wasn't even aware it was an option. No one ever thought to suggest it to her, they just assumed she wouldn't be interested. Once she got to college, she therefore felt like she was already behind; that everyone else already knew way more that she did and that she wouldn't be able to keep up in an elective class. It wasn't an oppressive culture or dongle jokes that kept her out of programming, it was just the assumption by everyone around her that girls generally are not interested in computers.

rmc 14y ago
It wasn't an oppressive culture Not offering someone a potential carrer path just because of their gender seems a bit opressive to me. Sexualised content at tech events just reenforced the idea that "programming isn't for women". Imagine a woman at a tech event where ther'es a lot of straight male locaker room jokes, and the organisers do nothing ans say there's nothing wrong going on, she'll come out of it thinking tech is for men.
Crake 14y ago
Plenty of people without any access to programming classes manage to teach themselves. If she was interested, she would have found a way. Just having access to college classes puts her ahead of most of america, honestly. Most people in America aren't lucky enough to have that sort of privilege. (as much as I hate that word) I don't want to make too many assumptions about someone I've never met, but from here it seems likely that it wasn't an oppressive culture that kept her out, it was the lack of enough innate interest to kick over into actively learning more about it.

Tichy 14y ago

Apart from what I said in my other reply, I suppose it is possible that a lot of women don't reflect their options and just choose the traditional paths society expects them to. If the 77% discussion makes more women reflect and choose professions with higher pay, fine. I just reject the notion of female victimhood and male oppression. However, it might really be a bit complicated. For example to get a degree costs the same no matter if you are going to work part time or full time. So investing into higher education already is a bigger gamble for women, if they expect they might have kids at some point. I suspect women are not stupid but chose their jobs smartly.

Crake 14y ago

Men have to earn enough money to support themselves and their potential spouse if they want to attract a mate, or even just generally be considered not a complete and total failure. Women can just marry someone after college and make the husband pay off all of their college loan debt for their women's studies major or whatever. Men have to choose more carefully, because they're the ones who have to pay off whatever debt they incur. (This also goes for lesbians as well, who can't expect their significant other to pay for all their things just because they are female, because their SO is also one.) I don't know that having all that societal pressure to make money is really a benefit for men. Women have far more options with career paths these days, and very rarely have to worry about money. It's totally socially acceptable to let their family or boyfriend support their existence. This is why you can easily find "professional artists" who write in their little blog that they "make their living" off of etsy when you can easily see they've made a total of a whopping $150 from their shop this month. I don't think it's fair at all to blame men for women making less money than men. Most women have the luxury of being able to afford not making much (or any) money and still do whatever they feel like/not have to worry about starving/housing/etc.

jurassic 14y ago
> Women can just marry someone after college and make the husband pay off all of their college loan debt for their women's studies major or whatever. > Women have far more options with career paths these days, and very rarely have to worry about money. That's some first class trolling there.
- Crake 14y ago
  Not trolling. I've seen my female friends do this many times/seen my male friends have to do this for their gfs/fiancees/etc. People have really different standards of what's acceptable based on a person's biological sex. Again, note that it's something that's not a given in gay relationships, because they don't usually follow heterosexual cultural scripts. I wish people would study it more because I think it's potentially a really interesting way to investigate heterosexual gender roles and norms.