4 ms·

Why? Because of monkey patching, syntax, performance, the community or some other reason such as you prefer Python or have an intuitive, ineffable and unexpress

by ansin 18y ago

Why? Because of monkey patching, syntax, performance, the community or some other reason such as you prefer Python or have an intuitive, ineffable and unexpressable disklike of the language or because Matz is from Japan and they bombed Pearl Harbor?

nir 18y ago
I think (and I mostly code Ruby these days) it's not least because of comments like this.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- ansin 18y ago
  Out of curiosity, what has your experience been like? Do you have any major gripes with the language or are you still on a Ruby honeymoon?
  - nir 18y ago
    I love Ruby. I love that code can be so short and yet easily readable. It might be slower and perhaps more memory-hungry than other languages, but for my needs that's usually not an issue. What I do miss are good, well documented, stable libraries. For example, I currently process RSS/Atom feeds with FeedTools, whose own creator says he's tired of maintaining (I totally understand him and am extremely thankful for the time he put into it). I assume if there were more people coding Ruby, there would be a better chance someone would step up and take his place. So, having a community that is more welcoming to newcomers would eventually benefit us all. By "open to newcomers" I don't mean that Ruby-celebs should stop posting snarky comments at each other in their blogs. This is pretty negilible. I mean stuff like having better documentation, for example, online, free, in googleable format (rather than screencasts or print books). IMHO PHP3 annotated online docs back in 1999 were significantly more usable than what Rails has to offer now.
    - jmhodges 18y ago
      (Psst.. check out rfeedparser.)
      - nir 18y ago
        Definitely will! Thanks
    - ansin 18y ago
      ->"I assume if there were more people coding Ruby, there would be a better chance someone would step up and take his place." Is it more the fact that the community is small or that fewer people share their code than in the Python community? Just wondering.
      - nir 18y ago
        I don't really know Python's community that well, but I would wager it's probably due to sheer size. I disagree with PG's "law of averages" regarding choosing environments - working in a language that has more users does have significant benefits in my opinion. BTW another example that comes to mind regarding beginner-friendliness is how long it took to get Rails working with Apache. Before Phusion you were supposed to run your own mongrel cluster or similar fringe solutions - it was insane to ignore the world's most widely installed server. Personally I only started considering Rails production-worthy after mod_rails turned out to be fast and stable. Sure, I can run Thin/nginx or whatever, but I don't want to learn a new server (and wait for it to mature) just so I can use Rails.
        ansin 18y ago
        I'm not qualified to respond to your points about Phusion and mongrel but on the previous point about the size of the community, are you also finding as a result that the job market for Ruby positions is sparse (forgetting about the economy for a second)? That's the impression I have from the job boards but you work in the field so maybe you have a better idea.
  - tannerburson 18y ago
    I'm not the parent but I'll reply anyway. I have very few issues with Ruby as a language, in general it let's me get from thought to working code quicker than any other language I've used. Honestly the largest issues I've run into with Ruby typically deal with people trying to be too clever. Ruby certainly provides a lot of ways for people who want to look incredibly clever to hang themselves and anyone using their code. I typically avoid libraries or frameworks where clever code is the norm (I'm looking at you Rails), and because of this I tend not to have too many problems. It's certainly not perfect, and I've been frustrated by bad error messages, stupid type system mistakes, etc. But I've found that those issues simply replace issues in other languages. I still feel that Ruby gets me from Thought to Code quicker, and for the kind of projects I typically do, that's worth dodging a couple of warts.
    - ansin 18y ago
      -> "the largest issues I've run into with Ruby typically deal with people trying to be too clever" I agree with you about Thought-to-Code and even though I argued in favor of monkey patching earlier, the willingness to use it without discipline has raised a red flag for me and is the biggest sign of this "too cleverness" that you're referring to (at least for me). If Ruby becomes the new Java, maintaining irresponsibly monkey patched legacy systems could be a nightmare for the enterprise developer in the years to come.
omouse 18y ago
Ruby isn't a very good Smalltalk, nor is it a good Lisp.
- ansin 18y ago
  It's not a very good Java either but does that really say anything? Java's not a very good Ruby. We can go round in circles.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    Smalltalk and Lisp are both well-designed languages, whereas Java's not.
Tichy 18y ago
(not the OP) I am still trying to like it, but my impression is that it is quite messy, and the documentation for Ruby is often bad.

by ansin 18y ago

nir 18y ago

I think (and I mostly code Ruby these days) it's not least because of comments like this.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
ansin 18y ago
Out of curiosity, what has your experience been like? Do you have any major gripes with the language or are you still on a Ruby honeymoon?
- nir 18y ago
  I love Ruby. I love that code can be so short and yet easily readable. It might be slower and perhaps more memory-hungry than other languages, but for my needs that's usually not an issue. What I do miss are good, well documented, stable libraries. For example, I currently process RSS/Atom feeds with FeedTools, whose own creator says he's tired of maintaining (I totally understand him and am extremely thankful for the time he put into it). I assume if there were more people coding Ruby, there would be a better chance someone would step up and take his place. So, having a community that is more welcoming to newcomers would eventually benefit us all. By "open to newcomers" I don't mean that Ruby-celebs should stop posting snarky comments at each other in their blogs. This is pretty negilible. I mean stuff like having better documentation, for example, online, free, in googleable format (rather than screencasts or print books). IMHO PHP3 annotated online docs back in 1999 were significantly more usable than what Rails has to offer now.
  - jmhodges 18y ago
    (Psst.. check out rfeedparser.)
    - nir 18y ago
      Definitely will! Thanks
  - ansin 18y ago
    ->"I assume if there were more people coding Ruby, there would be a better chance someone would step up and take his place." Is it more the fact that the community is small or that fewer people share their code than in the Python community? Just wondering.
    - nir 18y ago
      I don't really know Python's community that well, but I would wager it's probably due to sheer size. I disagree with PG's "law of averages" regarding choosing environments - working in a language that has more users does have significant benefits in my opinion. BTW another example that comes to mind regarding beginner-friendliness is how long it took to get Rails working with Apache. Before Phusion you were supposed to run your own mongrel cluster or similar fringe solutions - it was insane to ignore the world's most widely installed server. Personally I only started considering Rails production-worthy after mod_rails turned out to be fast and stable. Sure, I can run Thin/nginx or whatever, but I don't want to learn a new server (and wait for it to mature) just so I can use Rails.
      - ansin 18y ago
        I'm not qualified to respond to your points about Phusion and mongrel but on the previous point about the size of the community, are you also finding as a result that the job market for Ruby positions is sparse (forgetting about the economy for a second)? That's the impression I have from the job boards but you work in the field so maybe you have a better idea.
- tannerburson 18y ago
  I'm not the parent but I'll reply anyway. I have very few issues with Ruby as a language, in general it let's me get from thought to working code quicker than any other language I've used. Honestly the largest issues I've run into with Ruby typically deal with people trying to be too clever. Ruby certainly provides a lot of ways for people who want to look incredibly clever to hang themselves and anyone using their code. I typically avoid libraries or frameworks where clever code is the norm (I'm looking at you Rails), and because of this I tend not to have too many problems. It's certainly not perfect, and I've been frustrated by bad error messages, stupid type system mistakes, etc. But I've found that those issues simply replace issues in other languages. I still feel that Ruby gets me from Thought to Code quicker, and for the kind of projects I typically do, that's worth dodging a couple of warts.
  - ansin 18y ago
    -> "the largest issues I've run into with Ruby typically deal with people trying to be too clever" I agree with you about Thought-to-Code and even though I argued in favor of monkey patching earlier, the willingness to use it without discipline has raised a red flag for me and is the biggest sign of this "too cleverness" that you're referring to (at least for me). If Ruby becomes the new Java, maintaining irresponsibly monkey patched legacy systems could be a nightmare for the enterprise developer in the years to come.

omouse 18y ago

Ruby isn't a very good Smalltalk, nor is it a good Lisp.

ansin 18y ago
It's not a very good Java either but does that really say anything? Java's not a very good Ruby. We can go round in circles.
- jrockway 18y ago
  Smalltalk and Lisp are both well-designed languages, whereas Java's not.

Tichy 18y ago

(not the OP) I am still trying to like it, but my impression is that it is quite messy, and the documentation for Ruby is often bad.