5 ms·

The 77 cents on the dollar thing is just a symptom of the same thing, blaming men for all and everything and portraying women as victims (to excert special comp

by Tichy 14y ago

The 77 cents on the dollar thing is just a symptom of the same thing, blaming men for all and everything and portraying women as victims (to excert special compensation for women). If you research the paygap issue a little bit, you'll find that it really isn't an issue of discrimination at all (hint: among other things, women chose other professions than men). I admit that I have started to become very angry about this constant misrepresentation of men as oppressors of women and women being the victims. In reality women are the privileged "class" in our society. Actually I am willing to shoulder more, as had been men's ordained role for quite a while (in exchange women risk their lives for childbirth), but to then be derided and spat on is galling. WSJ: there is no male-female wage gap http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870441510457625... Why the pay gap is a sham: http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-is-just-a-myth-2011-3?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-i... Women in tech earn more than men: http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money-and-land-better-jobs-than-men-2010-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money...

flyinRyan 14y ago
Oh here we go. Didn't realize there was a "Men's rights" section on HN. "People just don't understand how hard it is to be a white male!"
- Tichy 14y ago
  Your argument being...?
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    That you're being an idiot. White male is the most privileged thing to be, not some down trodden, exploited minority. Posts like yours belong in /r/mensrights with the other crap. And from your other posts, I think you're much better than this.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      I see that you believe that, but you provide no arguments to support that. I only learned about /r/mensrights yesterday, checked it out but didn't like their attitudes at all. I think it is important to counter misguided feminism, though.
      - flyinRyan 14y ago
        Look, there are certainly misguided feminists out there and I wouldn't even consider Andrea Richards a feminist but rather a "shock jockey" who stirs up fake controversy to drive blog traffic for fun and profit. But that doesn't excuse making a post that could have been word-for-word copied out of mensrights about how downtrodden we are, complete with quotes to claim the wage gap doesn't exist. I'm all for countering misguided extremists from any side. By the way, you're quoting articles from Rupert Murdoch's WSJ to support your point? Didn't they have an article that claimed that the WHO and Berkley reports were wrong and the US (pre Obama care) had the greatest health care in the world? Yea, not believing anything from WSJ.
        Tichy 14y ago
        Something sounding like /r/mensrights does not make it right or wrong. And I argue against misinterpreting a statistic here, not particular feminists. I wonder why you are so emotionally invested in the belief that women are being oppressed? And what is absurd about men wanting rights? One issue I have with the "discrimination causes the wage gap" theory is that it prevents looking into the real causes. WSJ was just something that came up yesterday. I am not from the US so don't know their history (similar wage gap in my country, though). Using common sense, too - and researching more.
        flyinRyan 14y ago
        >And I argue against misinterpreting a statistic here Pretty much everyone who studies the issue concludes that there is a gap. It is likely that if anyone is misinterpreting a statistic it would be a laymen like you or I, not experts in the respective fields. >I wonder why you are so emotionally invested in the belief that women are being oppressed? I'm not emotionally invested in anything but the truth. >And what is absurd about men wanting rights? Obviously nothing. But /r/mensrights is a well known group of women-haters [1] who love to spout off one-off anecdotes to show how men are "actually the exploited group" and other such nonsense. There are cases where men get a raw deal (divorce court in the US comes to mind) but they are by far the minority. [1] 2 seconds of searching: http://manboobz.com/2013/01/28/the-mens-rights-subreddit-a-net-exporter-of-hate/ http://manboobz.com/2013/01/28/the-mens-rights-subreddit-a-n...
rmc 14y ago
among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs? Isn't that a symptom. Most feminists don't "blame men", but "blame gender roles". It's just most gender roles significantly benefit a lot of men (and harm a small amount of other men).
- Tichy 14y ago
  For various reasons. Probably they tend to have in mind that they need more flexibility for when they have children. Also that they might have a husband who provides main income. I don't know if people have to be pressured into having more time for their family, though. I think it is more having the option vs not having the option. I'd love to have the option as a man, but in general it is a privilege of women or rich people (not having to work). Income is just one measurement, health and life satisfactions are others. Are men really so well off if you consider those? Also, don't know about the US, but in my country women automatically get half of what their husbands earn. So they can go to Yoga class every day and still have a good income. Are they really so bad off? (edit: yoga class sounds snarky, what I mean is: women live longer than men, priorizing health over income might play a part). Also, if you say "pressured into bad jobs", what is the punishment for not choosing a bad job?
- superjambo 14y ago
  I think it would be because women tend to value the economic worth of potential mates more than men value the economic worth of potential mates. So any man choosing higher discomfort for more pay isn't just getting more money he's also improving his chance of finding a mate. Meanwhile women have a smaller incentive to take discomfort since they will not get the compensation of enhanced attractiveness.
  - rmc 14y ago
    Except that most of the high paying jobs aren't physically discomforting (e.g. sitting in a nice office all day), and there are loads of jobs that are poorly paying that are very uncomfortable (prostitution, cleaning toilets, etc.). So your theory doesn't match reality.

by Tichy 14y ago

flyinRyan 14y ago

Oh here we go. Didn't realize there was a "Men's rights" section on HN. "People just don't understand how hard it is to be a white male!"

Tichy 14y ago
Your argument being...?
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  That you're being an idiot. White male is the most privileged thing to be, not some down trodden, exploited minority. Posts like yours belong in /r/mensrights with the other crap. And from your other posts, I think you're much better than this.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    I see that you believe that, but you provide no arguments to support that. I only learned about /r/mensrights yesterday, checked it out but didn't like their attitudes at all. I think it is important to counter misguided feminism, though.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      Look, there are certainly misguided feminists out there and I wouldn't even consider Andrea Richards a feminist but rather a "shock jockey" who stirs up fake controversy to drive blog traffic for fun and profit. But that doesn't excuse making a post that could have been word-for-word copied out of mensrights about how downtrodden we are, complete with quotes to claim the wage gap doesn't exist. I'm all for countering misguided extremists from any side. By the way, you're quoting articles from Rupert Murdoch's WSJ to support your point? Didn't they have an article that claimed that the WHO and Berkley reports were wrong and the US (pre Obama care) had the greatest health care in the world? Yea, not believing anything from WSJ.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        Something sounding like /r/mensrights does not make it right or wrong. And I argue against misinterpreting a statistic here, not particular feminists. I wonder why you are so emotionally invested in the belief that women are being oppressed? And what is absurd about men wanting rights? One issue I have with the "discrimination causes the wage gap" theory is that it prevents looking into the real causes. WSJ was just something that came up yesterday. I am not from the US so don't know their history (similar wage gap in my country, though). Using common sense, too - and researching more.
        flyinRyan 14y ago
        >And I argue against misinterpreting a statistic here Pretty much everyone who studies the issue concludes that there is a gap. It is likely that if anyone is misinterpreting a statistic it would be a laymen like you or I, not experts in the respective fields. >I wonder why you are so emotionally invested in the belief that women are being oppressed? I'm not emotionally invested in anything but the truth. >And what is absurd about men wanting rights? Obviously nothing. But /r/mensrights is a well known group of women-haters [1] who love to spout off one-off anecdotes to show how men are "actually the exploited group" and other such nonsense. There are cases where men get a raw deal (divorce court in the US comes to mind) but they are by far the minority. [1] 2 seconds of searching: http://manboobz.com/2013/01/28/the-mens-rights-subreddit-a-net-exporter-of-hate/ http://manboobz.com/2013/01/28/the-mens-rights-subreddit-a-n...

rmc 14y ago

among other things, women chose other professions than men But why do they choose other professions? Do people pressure them into not choosing better paid jobs? Isn't that a symptom. Most feminists don't "blame men", but "blame gender roles". It's just most gender roles significantly benefit a lot of men (and harm a small amount of other men).

Tichy 14y ago
For various reasons. Probably they tend to have in mind that they need more flexibility for when they have children. Also that they might have a husband who provides main income. I don't know if people have to be pressured into having more time for their family, though. I think it is more having the option vs not having the option. I'd love to have the option as a man, but in general it is a privilege of women or rich people (not having to work). Income is just one measurement, health and life satisfactions are others. Are men really so well off if you consider those? Also, don't know about the US, but in my country women automatically get half of what their husbands earn. So they can go to Yoga class every day and still have a good income. Are they really so bad off? (edit: yoga class sounds snarky, what I mean is: women live longer than men, priorizing health over income might play a part). Also, if you say "pressured into bad jobs", what is the punishment for not choosing a bad job?
superjambo 14y ago
I think it would be because women tend to value the economic worth of potential mates more than men value the economic worth of potential mates. So any man choosing higher discomfort for more pay isn't just getting more money he's also improving his chance of finding a mate. Meanwhile women have a smaller incentive to take discomfort since they will not get the compensation of enhanced attractiveness.
- rmc 14y ago
  Except that most of the high paying jobs aren't physically discomforting (e.g. sitting in a nice office all day), and there are loads of jobs that are poorly paying that are very uncomfortable (prostitution, cleaning toilets, etc.). So your theory doesn't match reality.