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Infringement of 9Gag's trademark [pdf]

36 points by yemyat91 14y ago

avolcano 14y ago
So, naming the site "9GAG for Android" was asking for trouble. That's a clear-cut trademark issue, even if the app itself was named "Nine." Content ownership is a little murkier, of course, because 9GAG is a company that thrives off stealing and rebranding the content of others. There's also no reason they couldn't have played ball - there's lots of alternative mobile clients for sites like Reddit and Hacker News because they create a healthier community and fill a niche that the creators of those sites can't fulfill. Still, if 9GAG decided they wanted the ad revenue this app would deprive them of, I can't really fault them. (though, to be clear, I still totally fault them for being a shitty company that steals content!)
- ruqqq 14y ago
  Hey, I'm the creator of the app. I can't deny the website domain is asking for trouble. Truthfully, I wouldn't mind taking it down, it's just a marketing stunt anyway because back then, they haven't have an official Android app. What irks me is that they refuse to work together _at all_, and worst, their Android app is not up to standard. But well, now that it has come to this, I will pivot to another service which has a healthier devs and community.
  - nemothekid 14y ago
    I'm not a fan on 9gag, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to work with you. There are many issues with just having some random guy - despite how good natured he is - in charge of your company's official app.
    - ihuman 14y ago
      He's not in charge of the official app. He made a 9gag app, and then 9gag made their own after it. Now 9gag wants him to stop development.
      - itafroma 14y ago
        They're asking ruqqq to stop infringing on their trademark and copyright, not necessarily stop development. The trademark issue is likely resolvable by removing the "9GAG for Android" tagline and any other implied or expressed official connection to 9GAG that might appear in the app, website, or other marketing materials. What they're referring to with regards to the copyright violation is a little more complex: are they referring to the user-supplied content? Did ruqqq use 9GAG creative in the app? Something else? If it's anything other than the user-supplied content, which 9GAG doesn't have a copyright on anyway, that should be relatively straightforward to resolve, as well. But GP is referring to ruqqq's implied offer to make Nine the official 9GAG app (at least in some capacity), not that ruqqq actually is, at this moment, in charge.
        redDragon 14y ago
        Yes, I agree if ruqqq brands it as just-another-funny-app then perhaps there won't be any copyright violations, since 9GAG steals content from other sites, stealing content from them won't amount to any copyright violation. In my opinion unless 9GAG specifically says that the user-supplied content belongs to them, then it doesn't, but the terms here say something on those lines: http://9gag.com/tos http://9gag.com/tos
        itafroma 14y ago
        Their TOS makes it pretty clear that the user-supplied content doesn't belong to them, under section 3 "Subscriber Content": > Subscriber shall own all Subscriber Content that Subscriber contributes to the Site, but hereby grants and agrees to grant 9GAG, Inc a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, transferable right and license (with the right to sublicense), to use, copy, cache, publish, display, distribute, modify, create derivative works and store such Subscriber Content and to allow others to do so (“Content License”) in order to provide the Services. And under section 2 "Site Content", they claim ownership of everything except user-generated content (emphasis here is mine): > All materials displayed or performed on the Site, including, but not limited to text, graphics, logos, tools, photographs, images, illustrations, software or source code, audio and video, animations and Themes (as defined below), including without limitation the 9GAG, Inc Template Code (as defined below) (collectively, “Content”) (other than Content posted by Subscriber (“Subscriber Content”)) are the property of 9GAG, Inc and/or third parties and are protected by Hong Kong and international copyright laws. Even if they did try claim ownership, one can't transfer a copyright they don't hold, which is the case for most of 9GAG's user-supplied content.
  - afhof 14y ago
    You did work together, or more accurately, you did all the work for them. You took the risk of making an app that users like, 9gag saw that the risky work had been done (and that people would use it) and now knows that they don't need you any more. That said, I am impressed by a person who can get thousands of people to install his/her app. Now that you know how to get people, you can traverse the trademark line more safely in the future.
  - glimmung 14y ago
    Given the utterly charmless nature of the response, I do hope that you can find a way to continue to support your users and hopefully annoy 9gag without exposing yourself to any risk. (I don't have a dog in this race, but I like your tone and don't care for theirs at all!)
signed0 14y ago
Seems like they are saying "Take down your app or we will complain to Google and have them take it down". If this is the case, what is the harm in leaving it in the Play Store and forcing them to jump through hoops? If they do get it taken out of the Play Store, you could always provide the .apk for people to download.
- ruqqq 14y ago
  True enough. But they can always send a legal time my way at the same time. As an indie developer, ain't nobody got time for that..
  - signed0 14y ago
    In that case you could open source it and let people build their own apk.
  - fosfori 14y ago
    Move the ownership of the controversial material to somebody located in Europe. They don't have valid trademark here I assume, and the process should be easy enough. Of course that still leaves them able to ask for removal from US Google Play, but at least they can't sue you.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  I have no idea how the Play Store works, but I imagine having claims against you would bode poorly in future disputes. If it's not something you mean to contest, why bother?
hayksaakian 14y ago
Ironic that a site that runs on borrowed content is suddenly appalled that someone else borrows their content.
- ben1040 14y ago
  I had never even heard of 9Gag before until now. It definitely looks like this decade's iteration of eBaum's World, except instead of "borrowing" Flash games from their original creators, it's skimming images from Reddit.
  - fosfori 14y ago
    Why should you have? There's plethora of these "funny image sites" out there, but this just happens to have the biggest watermark in "their" pictures.
  - sharkweek 14y ago
    fun tidbit -- it's actually a YC alum S12 -- I can't stand what they do, but I suppose it's probably on track to make decent money
- afhof 14y ago
  Borrowing is a such a weak word for stamping their obnoxious logo on unoriginal pics. Its somewhat saddening to me how popular they have become due to their sleaze. (Seriously: Why create anything new when you can rise to popularity on the works of others?)
  - hayksaakian 14y ago
    I didn't want to come off as snarky, but I agree with the sentiment. It disgusts be that they're associated with YC.
- serf 14y ago
  That was exactly what I thought. While not constructive, my first urge (if I were in the position to respond) would've been a screencap of the email with a 9gag logo stamped on the corner.
ancat 14y ago
Haha, oh wow. 9gag, famous for stolen content from other websites, is upset someone else has made an app that uses their content?
reion 14y ago
I did like how you were trying to handle the situation, it was really reasonable to try work something out. I am sad about their response to you, make me loss faith and proves that once they were successful, they just stopped caring. I would suggest you trying sending an other email with same approach to someone else higher up in company. From what i get Ray is guy in legal department, we don't know if he cares about user base and if he forwarded the email to someone else before he decided to deny you a way out.
darkxanthos 14y ago
Nah. You crossed a line. You leveraged their brand to build your app's user base and then you essentially say "Let's make a deal." And act appalled when they have a bad taste in their mouth? That's a dick move. Like the letter said if you're truly just worried for your users redirect them to 9gag's app, but the problem is that's not your real concern apparently.
dimka 14y ago
9Gag quite often is virtually stealing images from all over the world. But technically they have an upper hand. I think you should just create your own project similar to theirs and direct your users to it, changing the name and complying with their request.
xkcdfanboy 14y ago
I'd say you should keep the app up and change some of the names. You did them a huge favor by creating an app and they give you some contrived robotic response? Fuck them. They thrive on stolen content anyhow, it's not like they have much of a leg to stand on.
logn 14y ago
Nein gag. These apps actually are annoying. The name should indicate they're not official. All of these apps harvest some user data and (whether deserved or not) I trust it to the name brand more than a random developer. Anyhow it seems like they had a reasonable exchange. I loved how after the threatening legal letter the co-founder's email has a link to his funny collection! Edit: but I do appreciate the developer filling a need that wasn't met. I think I probably have this app installed actually. Anyhow, it's never fun to sift through multiple, similar looking apps.
DannyBee 14y ago
All the letter is missing is a "via 9gag.com" watermark added to it (well, i guess someone would have to post it to reddit first) Interestingly, the only actual 9gag trademark i can find is for a character mark that was registered 2 days ago.
- Kudos 14y ago
  A mark becomes a trademark simply by its use in trade, registering a trademark just gives you stronger legal grounds.
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    Yes, i'm a registered patent/trademark attorney, so i'm familiar with the law :) I'm just surprised, usually they don't go issuing letters until they have something substantial registered.
arbus 14y ago
A reddit post from awhile ago explains pretty accurately how 9gag gets all their "content" http://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/zacju/9gag_repost_machine_explained/ http://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/zacju/9gag_repost_mac...
- afhof 14y ago
  Don't read too seriously into that, as most users of 4chan are loathe to use reddit (and strongly consider reddit to do the same thing that 9gag does).
joezhou 14y ago
As a dev, I feel really really sympathetic towards your situation. However, it's the reality of the business. I've written things that leverage certain APIs and ended up getting replaced by "the official version." Yes, our apps bring traffic to their site, but it's also a two way street. By leveraging APIs, we are taking advantage of their users and infrastructures. So yeah, it sucks that it ended, but at least it was fun (hopefully profitable) while it lasted. Move on bro!
iagomr 14y ago
Even though you might not live in the US, I think you should change the name and visuals to avoid any possible shitstorm in your way. If there is really a market for you, maybe you should disassociate now from 9GAG and create your own product and serve users with your own concept. Find a way to deliver relevant content to your users, and maybe in 2 years you'll be bigger than 9GAG :)
- serf 14y ago
  What are you even saying? I doubt the developer himself has a market(Hell, the only time I can think of when someone says "Oh, i'm buying it because of so and so." it's either John Carmack or Will Wright.), and if he abandons the app the market you're referring to disappears. Why would it be assumed that the maker of an application that piggybacks itself off of a non-owned mother site would find a way to deliver content to his users? Be realistic. The guy makes an app that parses out a website. Now for the "I'm no lawyer.." . Change the site URL and defend the app. You filled a niche, apparently still do, and 'Nine' is ambiguous as hell.
stormen 14y ago
I don't see -what- they accuse you of stealing. The content? It's not theirs. The name? NINE is too generic to have an association to "9GAG". What else do you use? You named the site "9GAG for Android", which was risky. Change that, and then ask them - in writing - to inform you which other legal issues they see with your app. Again, they don't own the content. They could prevent you from scraping their content, and/or revoke your API license, and/or claim that your scraping was in conflict with their TOS, but again, ask them what the issue is.
barredo 14y ago
> 9GAG is the world's leading community for funny content. That statement may be false, but that's indeed, a funny phrase.
teashorts 14y ago
I didn't realize anyone actually cared about 9gag and their "content".

36 points by yemyat91 14y ago

So, naming the site "9GAG for Android" was asking for trouble. That's a clear-cut trademark issue, even if the app itself was named "Nine." Content ownership is a little murkier, of course, because 9GAG is a company that thrives off stealing and rebranding the content of others. There's also no reason they couldn't have played ball - there's lots of alternative mobile clients for sites like Reddit and Hacker News because they create a healthier community and fill a niche that the creators of those sites can't fulfill. Still, if 9GAG decided they wanted the ad revenue this app would deprive them of, I can't really fault them. (though, to be clear, I still totally fault them for being a shitty company that steals content!)

ruqqq 14y ago
Hey, I'm the creator of the app. I can't deny the website domain is asking for trouble. Truthfully, I wouldn't mind taking it down, it's just a marketing stunt anyway because back then, they haven't have an official Android app. What irks me is that they refuse to work together _at all_, and worst, their Android app is not up to standard. But well, now that it has come to this, I will pivot to another service which has a healthier devs and community.
- nemothekid 14y ago
  I'm not a fan on 9gag, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to work with you. There are many issues with just having some random guy - despite how good natured he is - in charge of your company's official app.
  - ihuman 14y ago
    He's not in charge of the official app. He made a 9gag app, and then 9gag made their own after it. Now 9gag wants him to stop development.
    - itafroma 14y ago
      They're asking ruqqq to stop infringing on their trademark and copyright, not necessarily stop development. The trademark issue is likely resolvable by removing the "9GAG for Android" tagline and any other implied or expressed official connection to 9GAG that might appear in the app, website, or other marketing materials. What they're referring to with regards to the copyright violation is a little more complex: are they referring to the user-supplied content? Did ruqqq use 9GAG creative in the app? Something else? If it's anything other than the user-supplied content, which 9GAG doesn't have a copyright on anyway, that should be relatively straightforward to resolve, as well. But GP is referring to ruqqq's implied offer to make Nine the official 9GAG app (at least in some capacity), not that ruqqq actually is, at this moment, in charge.
      - redDragon 14y ago
        Yes, I agree if ruqqq brands it as just-another-funny-app then perhaps there won't be any copyright violations, since 9GAG steals content from other sites, stealing content from them won't amount to any copyright violation. In my opinion unless 9GAG specifically says that the user-supplied content belongs to them, then it doesn't, but the terms here say something on those lines: http://9gag.com/tos http://9gag.com/tos
        itafroma 14y ago
        Their TOS makes it pretty clear that the user-supplied content doesn't belong to them, under section 3 "Subscriber Content": > Subscriber shall own all Subscriber Content that Subscriber contributes to the Site, but hereby grants and agrees to grant 9GAG, Inc a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, transferable right and license (with the right to sublicense), to use, copy, cache, publish, display, distribute, modify, create derivative works and store such Subscriber Content and to allow others to do so (“Content License”) in order to provide the Services. And under section 2 "Site Content", they claim ownership of everything except user-generated content (emphasis here is mine): > All materials displayed or performed on the Site, including, but not limited to text, graphics, logos, tools, photographs, images, illustrations, software or source code, audio and video, animations and Themes (as defined below), including without limitation the 9GAG, Inc Template Code (as defined below) (collectively, “Content”) (other than Content posted by Subscriber (“Subscriber Content”)) are the property of 9GAG, Inc and/or third parties and are protected by Hong Kong and international copyright laws. Even if they did try claim ownership, one can't transfer a copyright they don't hold, which is the case for most of 9GAG's user-supplied content.
- afhof 14y ago
  You did work together, or more accurately, you did all the work for them. You took the risk of making an app that users like, 9gag saw that the risky work had been done (and that people would use it) and now knows that they don't need you any more. That said, I am impressed by a person who can get thousands of people to install his/her app. Now that you know how to get people, you can traverse the trademark line more safely in the future.
- glimmung 14y ago
  Given the utterly charmless nature of the response, I do hope that you can find a way to continue to support your users and hopefully annoy 9gag without exposing yourself to any risk. (I don't have a dog in this race, but I like your tone and don't care for theirs at all!)

signed0 14y ago

Seems like they are saying "Take down your app or we will complain to Google and have them take it down". If this is the case, what is the harm in leaving it in the Play Store and forcing them to jump through hoops? If they do get it taken out of the Play Store, you could always provide the .apk for people to download.

ruqqq 14y ago
True enough. But they can always send a legal time my way at the same time. As an indie developer, ain't nobody got time for that..
- signed0 14y ago
  In that case you could open source it and let people build their own apk.
- fosfori 14y ago
  Move the ownership of the controversial material to somebody located in Europe. They don't have valid trademark here I assume, and the process should be easy enough. Of course that still leaves them able to ask for removal from US Google Play, but at least they can't sue you.
redthrowaway 14y ago
I have no idea how the Play Store works, but I imagine having claims against you would bode poorly in future disputes. If it's not something you mean to contest, why bother?

hayksaakian 14y ago

Ironic that a site that runs on borrowed content is suddenly appalled that someone else borrows their content.

ben1040 14y ago
I had never even heard of 9Gag before until now. It definitely looks like this decade's iteration of eBaum's World, except instead of "borrowing" Flash games from their original creators, it's skimming images from Reddit.
- fosfori 14y ago
  Why should you have? There's plethora of these "funny image sites" out there, but this just happens to have the biggest watermark in "their" pictures.
- sharkweek 14y ago
  fun tidbit -- it's actually a YC alum S12 -- I can't stand what they do, but I suppose it's probably on track to make decent money
afhof 14y ago
Borrowing is a such a weak word for stamping their obnoxious logo on unoriginal pics. Its somewhat saddening to me how popular they have become due to their sleaze. (Seriously: Why create anything new when you can rise to popularity on the works of others?)
- hayksaakian 14y ago
  I didn't want to come off as snarky, but I agree with the sentiment. It disgusts be that they're associated with YC.
serf 14y ago
That was exactly what I thought. While not constructive, my first urge (if I were in the position to respond) would've been a screencap of the email with a 9gag logo stamped on the corner.

ancat 14y ago

Haha, oh wow. 9gag, famous for stolen content from other websites, is upset someone else has made an app that uses their content?

reion 14y ago

I did like how you were trying to handle the situation, it was really reasonable to try work something out. I am sad about their response to you, make me loss faith and proves that once they were successful, they just stopped caring. I would suggest you trying sending an other email with same approach to someone else higher up in company. From what i get Ray is guy in legal department, we don't know if he cares about user base and if he forwarded the email to someone else before he decided to deny you a way out.

darkxanthos 14y ago

Nah. You crossed a line. You leveraged their brand to build your app's user base and then you essentially say "Let's make a deal." And act appalled when they have a bad taste in their mouth? That's a dick move. Like the letter said if you're truly just worried for your users redirect them to 9gag's app, but the problem is that's not your real concern apparently.

dimka 14y ago

9Gag quite often is virtually stealing images from all over the world. But technically they have an upper hand. I think you should just create your own project similar to theirs and direct your users to it, changing the name and complying with their request.

xkcdfanboy 14y ago

I'd say you should keep the app up and change some of the names. You did them a huge favor by creating an app and they give you some contrived robotic response? Fuck them. They thrive on stolen content anyhow, it's not like they have much of a leg to stand on.

logn 14y ago

Nein gag. These apps actually are annoying. The name should indicate they're not official. All of these apps harvest some user data and (whether deserved or not) I trust it to the name brand more than a random developer. Anyhow it seems like they had a reasonable exchange. I loved how after the threatening legal letter the co-founder's email has a link to his funny collection! Edit: but I do appreciate the developer filling a need that wasn't met. I think I probably have this app installed actually. Anyhow, it's never fun to sift through multiple, similar looking apps.

DannyBee 14y ago

All the letter is missing is a "via 9gag.com" watermark added to it (well, i guess someone would have to post it to reddit first) Interestingly, the only actual 9gag trademark i can find is for a character mark that was registered 2 days ago.

Kudos 14y ago
A mark becomes a trademark simply by its use in trade, registering a trademark just gives you stronger legal grounds.
- DannyBee 14y ago
  Yes, i'm a registered patent/trademark attorney, so i'm familiar with the law :) I'm just surprised, usually they don't go issuing letters until they have something substantial registered.

arbus 14y ago

A reddit post from awhile ago explains pretty accurately how 9gag gets all their "content" http://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/zacju/9gag_repost_machine_explained/ http://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/zacju/9gag_repost_mac...

afhof 14y ago
Don't read too seriously into that, as most users of 4chan are loathe to use reddit (and strongly consider reddit to do the same thing that 9gag does).

joezhou 14y ago

As a dev, I feel really really sympathetic towards your situation. However, it's the reality of the business. I've written things that leverage certain APIs and ended up getting replaced by "the official version." Yes, our apps bring traffic to their site, but it's also a two way street. By leveraging APIs, we are taking advantage of their users and infrastructures. So yeah, it sucks that it ended, but at least it was fun (hopefully profitable) while it lasted. Move on bro!

iagomr 14y ago

Even though you might not live in the US, I think you should change the name and visuals to avoid any possible shitstorm in your way. If there is really a market for you, maybe you should disassociate now from 9GAG and create your own product and serve users with your own concept. Find a way to deliver relevant content to your users, and maybe in 2 years you'll be bigger than 9GAG :)

serf 14y ago
What are you even saying? I doubt the developer himself has a market(Hell, the only time I can think of when someone says "Oh, i'm buying it because of so and so." it's either John Carmack or Will Wright.), and if he abandons the app the market you're referring to disappears. Why would it be assumed that the maker of an application that piggybacks itself off of a non-owned mother site would find a way to deliver content to his users? Be realistic. The guy makes an app that parses out a website. Now for the "I'm no lawyer.." . Change the site URL and defend the app. You filled a niche, apparently still do, and 'Nine' is ambiguous as hell.

stormen 14y ago

I don't see -what- they accuse you of stealing. The content? It's not theirs. The name? NINE is too generic to have an association to "9GAG". What else do you use? You named the site "9GAG for Android", which was risky. Change that, and then ask them - in writing - to inform you which other legal issues they see with your app. Again, they don't own the content. They could prevent you from scraping their content, and/or revoke your API license, and/or claim that your scraping was in conflict with their TOS, but again, ask them what the issue is.

barredo 14y ago

> 9GAG is the world's leading community for funny content. That statement may be false, but that's indeed, a funny phrase.

teashorts 14y ago

I didn't realize anyone actually cared about 9gag and their "content".