6 ms·

John Quijada and Ithkuil, the Language He Invented

78 points by ph0rque 14y ago

cscurmudgeon 14y ago
Classical Sanskrit was designed with this exact goal in mind. http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/466 http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/46... There are still native speakers of Sanskrit. The cool thing about Sanskrit is that not only is its syntax formalized, but people have tried to give an account of its semantics over thousands of years.
- goldfeld 14y ago
  And it comes with the added benefit of making one able to read ancient literature in it's original form. Thanks for the link, fascinating stuff that such a language would be the perfect match for AI. Stranger than fiction.
- batgaijin 14y ago
  what does that mean that NLP and sanskrit go so well together? Is that accidental?
  - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
    It is definitely accidental given that they had no computers back then. It makes sense as Classical Sanskrit was an effort to remove ambiguity in Vedic Sanskrit and improve precision while still being a natural language. A lot, not all, of modern NLP is about removing ambiguity. The way we describe grammars can be attributed to one of the first Sanskrit grammarians, Pāṇini. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form The idea of semantic roles can also be traced back to him. http://elies.rediris.es/elies11/cap5111.htm http://elies.rediris.es/elies11/cap5111.htm
    - andreasvc 14y ago
      It is odd to say NLP is about "removing ambiguity". Rather, it is about _coping_ with ambiguity (of the linguistic variety). Using a language with (supposedly) less ambiguity would just be a cop-out, not a real solution.
      - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
        Agreed. We need to understand how humans do language fully with ambiguity. We should also study Sanskrit and understand it fully from an AI perspective. Otherwise, it is like trying to go to a planet in the Andromeda galaxy without first ever going to the moon. Never gonna happen.
    - batgaijin 14y ago
      well... I mean do you think that a language evolved that is this easy to parse accidental? I mean our brains are computers using mimicry and heuristics... why isn't that accounted for more in the creation of this language?
- _pmf_ 14y ago
  Thank you for this!
- anuraj 14y ago
  There are no native speakers of Sanskrit - some people have tried to revive Sanskrit by speaking it - sometimes in large groups. Usage of Sanskrit as a day to day language probably ended hundreds if not thousands of years ago. There are still books written in the language and quiet a number of people can understand it. It is a matter of debate if Sanskrit was any time used as a primary language for communication.
  - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
    It is a matter of debate if Sanskrit was any time used as a primary language for communication. It is not a matter of debate as there are speakers even today. Declining definitely, but still significant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Contemporary_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Contemporary_usage The 1991 and 2001, census of India recorded 49,736 and 14,135 persons, respectively, with Sanskrit as their native language.[1]
    - anuraj 14y ago
      Yes - but native language in census terms do not mean mother tongue. There are few villages in India which adopted Sanskrit as first tongue - That is an experiment not akin to being part of a continuity. At the most, you can say these native speakers revived a dead language.
      - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
        I know this is a very sensitive topic given the language chauvinism that is prevalent in India. There are at least two villages which speak Sanskrit (just Google it). It was definitely the case that there were more speakers of Sanskrit (Vedic+Classical) and people who have Sanskrit as their mother tongue. People sort of resort to gymnastics to deny the obvious. As long as there are people speaking a language natively and people genuinely interested in it, I don't think you can call that language dead. But I agree, Sanskrit speakers are on the decline and it is a bad thing. http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=37847 http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&b... But surprisingly, today in Mangalore, there is one unique family where all the members are using Sanskrit as their mother tongue and they all interact with each other in this language only. Seems highly improbable but nevertheless, it is true. I think one reason for the decline is that you need to be pretty intelligent to learn Sanskrit (vs say Tamil or English). I sort of feel that the human race itself was more smart a few thousand years ago. (See http://rt.com/usa/news/intelligence-stanford-years-fragile-531/ http://rt.com/usa/news/intelligence-stanford-years-fragile-5...)
habosa 14y ago
This article is a great read, I read it a while back and was blown away. I never gave any thought to the advantages of any language over any other, I always looked at it with the programmer's lens. Just as all modern programming languages are Turing Complete and therefore equivalent (preferences aside), I assumed that the same would be true for most spoken languages. Ithkuil and the like really show that there is a lot more room for variety than most people imagine.
- th0114nd 14y ago
  To say that all languages are equivalent because they are Turing Complete is just not true. That means they can decide the same class of problems, it does not mean they can or do decide them in the same way. In particular some languages are inherently faster than others.
  - javert 14y ago
    > That means they can decide the same class of problems, it does not mean they can or do decide them in the same way. OK so far... > In particular some languages are inherently faster than others. Which is an example of deciding the same class of problems, just doing in in a "different way." So your example is not providing a counterexample to the claim; it's providing an example.
    - th0114nd 14y ago
      Measuring time of computation is counting the number of primitive operations. I'd say a language is a collection of capabilities that play nicely. Given one language, we can create a second that is also RE by taking each instruction in the first and adding a nop, or calculate ack(10,10) and throws it away, or whatever. Any algorithm that the second language computes with at least one step runs in fewer primitive steps in the first language by design. Beyond a theoretical consideration, in practice there is much more than preference providing the difference between languages. If they were the same, you shouldn't have any trouble implementing combinators in brainfuck.
  - habosa 14y ago
jliechti1 14y ago
This reminds me of an interesting short story entitled "Understand" that I read a few years ago. The premise of the story deals with the question "what would it be like to find meaning and order in everything you saw?". Naturally, language is one facet of this. "I'm designing a new language. I've reached the limits of conventional languages, and now they frustrate my attempts to progress further. They lack the power to express concepts that I need, and even in their own domain, they're imprecise and unwieldy. They're hardly fit for speech, let alone thought." Full story here: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm
webreac 14y ago
"Ithkuil has two seemingly incompatible ambitions: to be maximally precise but also maximally concise". I immediately thought about perl.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  What? You thought of perl as maximally precise? Have you ever used it? I wish I could find the link about MJD doing some perl consulting, fixing an apparent bug and then finding that what appeared to be a bug was yet another perl special case.
tragomaskhalos 14y ago
Some years ago I read a wonderful - and very opinionated - book entitled "The Loom of Language", which opined that had Wilkins' "Real Character" (briefly described in the article) become the norm for scienfific discourse then scientific progress would have ground to a halt, because Wilkins' scheme systematised human knowledge into a fixed hierarchy of concepts, but made no allowance for new concepts. I wonder if Ithkuil might suffer from the same essential weakness (which is not to detract from the awe in which one must hold such an exquisitly intricate creation)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

78 points by ph0rque 14y ago

Classical Sanskrit was designed with this exact goal in mind. http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/466 http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/46... There are still native speakers of Sanskrit. The cool thing about Sanskrit is that not only is its syntax formalized, but people have tried to give an account of its semantics over thousands of years.

goldfeld 14y ago
And it comes with the added benefit of making one able to read ancient literature in it's original form. Thanks for the link, fascinating stuff that such a language would be the perfect match for AI. Stranger than fiction.
batgaijin 14y ago
what does that mean that NLP and sanskrit go so well together? Is that accidental?
- cscurmudgeon 14y ago
  It is definitely accidental given that they had no computers back then. It makes sense as Classical Sanskrit was an effort to remove ambiguity in Vedic Sanskrit and improve precision while still being a natural language. A lot, not all, of modern NLP is about removing ambiguity. The way we describe grammars can be attributed to one of the first Sanskrit grammarians, Pāṇini. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form The idea of semantic roles can also be traced back to him. http://elies.rediris.es/elies11/cap5111.htm http://elies.rediris.es/elies11/cap5111.htm
  - andreasvc 14y ago
    It is odd to say NLP is about "removing ambiguity". Rather, it is about _coping_ with ambiguity (of the linguistic variety). Using a language with (supposedly) less ambiguity would just be a cop-out, not a real solution.
    - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
      Agreed. We need to understand how humans do language fully with ambiguity. We should also study Sanskrit and understand it fully from an AI perspective. Otherwise, it is like trying to go to a planet in the Andromeda galaxy without first ever going to the moon. Never gonna happen.
  - batgaijin 14y ago
    well... I mean do you think that a language evolved that is this easy to parse accidental? I mean our brains are computers using mimicry and heuristics... why isn't that accounted for more in the creation of this language?
_pmf_ 14y ago
Thank you for this!
anuraj 14y ago
There are no native speakers of Sanskrit - some people have tried to revive Sanskrit by speaking it - sometimes in large groups. Usage of Sanskrit as a day to day language probably ended hundreds if not thousands of years ago. There are still books written in the language and quiet a number of people can understand it. It is a matter of debate if Sanskrit was any time used as a primary language for communication.
- cscurmudgeon 14y ago
  It is a matter of debate if Sanskrit was any time used as a primary language for communication. It is not a matter of debate as there are speakers even today. Declining definitely, but still significant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Contemporary_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Contemporary_usage The 1991 and 2001, census of India recorded 49,736 and 14,135 persons, respectively, with Sanskrit as their native language.[1]
  - anuraj 14y ago
    Yes - but native language in census terms do not mean mother tongue. There are few villages in India which adopted Sanskrit as first tongue - That is an experiment not akin to being part of a continuity. At the most, you can say these native speakers revived a dead language.
    - cscurmudgeon 14y ago
      I know this is a very sensitive topic given the language chauvinism that is prevalent in India. There are at least two villages which speak Sanskrit (just Google it). It was definitely the case that there were more speakers of Sanskrit (Vedic+Classical) and people who have Sanskrit as their mother tongue. People sort of resort to gymnastics to deny the obvious. As long as there are people speaking a language natively and people genuinely interested in it, I don't think you can call that language dead. But I agree, Sanskrit speakers are on the decline and it is a bad thing. http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=37847 http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&b... But surprisingly, today in Mangalore, there is one unique family where all the members are using Sanskrit as their mother tongue and they all interact with each other in this language only. Seems highly improbable but nevertheless, it is true. I think one reason for the decline is that you need to be pretty intelligent to learn Sanskrit (vs say Tamil or English). I sort of feel that the human race itself was more smart a few thousand years ago. (See http://rt.com/usa/news/intelligence-stanford-years-fragile-531/ http://rt.com/usa/news/intelligence-stanford-years-fragile-5...)

habosa 14y ago

This article is a great read, I read it a while back and was blown away. I never gave any thought to the advantages of any language over any other, I always looked at it with the programmer's lens. Just as all modern programming languages are Turing Complete and therefore equivalent (preferences aside), I assumed that the same would be true for most spoken languages. Ithkuil and the like really show that there is a lot more room for variety than most people imagine.

th0114nd 14y ago
To say that all languages are equivalent because they are Turing Complete is just not true. That means they can decide the same class of problems, it does not mean they can or do decide them in the same way. In particular some languages are inherently faster than others.
- javert 14y ago
  > That means they can decide the same class of problems, it does not mean they can or do decide them in the same way. OK so far... > In particular some languages are inherently faster than others. Which is an example of deciding the same class of problems, just doing in in a "different way." So your example is not providing a counterexample to the claim; it's providing an example.
  - th0114nd 14y ago
    Measuring time of computation is counting the number of primitive operations. I'd say a language is a collection of capabilities that play nicely. Given one language, we can create a second that is also RE by taking each instruction in the first and adding a nop, or calculate ack(10,10) and throws it away, or whatever. Any algorithm that the second language computes with at least one step runs in fewer primitive steps in the first language by design. Beyond a theoretical consideration, in practice there is much more than preference providing the difference between languages. If they were the same, you shouldn't have any trouble implementing combinators in brainfuck.
- habosa 14y ago

jliechti1 14y ago

This reminds me of an interesting short story entitled "Understand" that I read a few years ago. The premise of the story deals with the question "what would it be like to find meaning and order in everything you saw?". Naturally, language is one facet of this. "I'm designing a new language. I've reached the limits of conventional languages, and now they frustrate my attempts to progress further. They lack the power to express concepts that I need, and even in their own domain, they're imprecise and unwieldy. They're hardly fit for speech, let alone thought." Full story here: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm

webreac 14y ago

"Ithkuil has two seemingly incompatible ambitions: to be maximally precise but also maximally concise". I immediately thought about perl.

flyinRyan 14y ago
What? You thought of perl as maximally precise? Have you ever used it? I wish I could find the link about MJD doing some perl consulting, fixing an apparent bug and then finding that what appeared to be a bug was yet another perl special case.

tragomaskhalos 14y ago

Some years ago I read a wonderful - and very opinionated - book entitled "The Loom of Language", which opined that had Wilkins' "Real Character" (briefly described in the article) become the norm for scienfific discourse then scientific progress would have ground to a halt, because Wilkins' scheme systematised human knowledge into a fixed hierarchy of concepts, but made no allowance for new concepts. I wonder if Ithkuil might suffer from the same essential weakness (which is not to detract from the awe in which one must hold such an exquisitly intricate creation)

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]