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Stealing something I wrote on another thread here: Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a grou

by Steuard 14y ago

Stealing something I wrote on another thread here: Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a group of guys making those jokes suddenly clams up and changes the topic the moment an unfamiliar woman walks up. (And when a woman joins in and shows that she's comfortable making those jokes, too, watch how glad everyone is that she can be "just one of the guys".) So when guys at a conference routinely make dick jokes in public, that contributes to a sense that the conference is a male space. It's not a conscious thing, but it's a real thing, and it would be good for it to change. I don't know that the public shaming in this case was the right way to go about that, but I'm not sure that I have a better alternative to offer, either. (Women are all too aware that quietly saying "Please don't act that way" tends to have no impact at all, apart from the guys thinking she's a humorless busybody.)

cameronh90 14y ago
The reason a group of men clams up when a woman walks past is because they're worried she'll take offense like Adria did. Evidence it's not exclusively part of men's culture is that when a women shows herself not to be offended, most groups of men will actively include her in those jokes. It doesn't mean we actually think it's offensive or understand why anyone would be offended.. honestly I find it kind of baffling, but nevertheless, I will watch my tongue around unfamiliar women just in case. The other thing is that the potential outcome from offending a woman is much worse than offending a man. I would hate for what I said to be misconstrued as sexual harassment, and it could potentially lose me my job if it was (as it has done for an unfortunate developer in this case). As far as "one of the guys" goes.. I think that's a perhaps unfortunate way of phrasing a well intentioned message: you are someone we are happy to relax around. My girlfriend is a female developer and quite happily refers to herself as one of the guys and doesn't see it as a problem or sexist. What she does find a little annoying is having to reassure men that she won't be offended by their non-harassing sexual innuendos in order for them to relax around her. There's probably not really an absolute solution to this.. people take offense at different things. It's nearly impossible to offend me, but other people are offended by the colour of the sky.
- Steuard 14y ago
  It feels like you're missing my point a bit here, so maybe I've been unclear. The reasons that the guys clam up aren't really the issue at all, and I'm not trying to make claims about whether dick jokes are or should be offensive to anyone. My actual point is that in practice, whatever the reason, guys typically only make those jokes when they consider themselves to be in an environment where such jokes are welcome: what I called a "male space". So what does it imply when guys at tech conferences feel comfortable making dick jokes in public? The message that "this is a male space" comes across loud and clear to everyone who hears them: men feel a bit more comfortable making off-color jokes of their own, and women feel like outsiders. Again, all of those implications are entirely independent of whether anyone actually finds the jokes themselves offensive, and independent of the reasons that guys typically self-censor. In this case, I rather suspect that Richards herself was not offended by the joke, but was upset that the guys were (unconsciously) sending a "male space" message simply by being willing to say it out loud.

by Steuard 14y ago

cameronh90 14y ago

The reason a group of men clams up when a woman walks past is because they're worried she'll take offense like Adria did. Evidence it's not exclusively part of men's culture is that when a women shows herself not to be offended, most groups of men will actively include her in those jokes. It doesn't mean we actually think it's offensive or understand why anyone would be offended.. honestly I find it kind of baffling, but nevertheless, I will watch my tongue around unfamiliar women just in case. The other thing is that the potential outcome from offending a woman is much worse than offending a man. I would hate for what I said to be misconstrued as sexual harassment, and it could potentially lose me my job if it was (as it has done for an unfortunate developer in this case). As far as "one of the guys" goes.. I think that's a perhaps unfortunate way of phrasing a well intentioned message: you are someone we are happy to relax around. My girlfriend is a female developer and quite happily refers to herself as one of the guys and doesn't see it as a problem or sexist. What she does find a little annoying is having to reassure men that she won't be offended by their non-harassing sexual innuendos in order for them to relax around her. There's probably not really an absolute solution to this.. people take offense at different things. It's nearly impossible to offend me, but other people are offended by the colour of the sky.

Steuard 14y ago
It feels like you're missing my point a bit here, so maybe I've been unclear. The reasons that the guys clam up aren't really the issue at all, and I'm not trying to make claims about whether dick jokes are or should be offensive to anyone. My actual point is that in practice, whatever the reason, guys typically only make those jokes when they consider themselves to be in an environment where such jokes are welcome: what I called a "male space". So what does it imply when guys at tech conferences feel comfortable making dick jokes in public? The message that "this is a male space" comes across loud and clear to everyone who hears them: men feel a bit more comfortable making off-color jokes of their own, and women feel like outsiders. Again, all of those implications are entirely independent of whether anyone actually finds the jokes themselves offensive, and independent of the reasons that guys typically self-censor. In this case, I rather suspect that Richards herself was not offended by the joke, but was upset that the guys were (unconsciously) sending a "male space" message simply by being willing to say it out loud.