3 ms·

Discussions like this seem to always come back to a sense of "fairness". It's not about being fair, but about how situations make people feel. Majority-group m

by cglee 14y ago

Discussions like this seem to always come back to a sense of "fairness". It's not about being fair, but about how situations make people feel. Majority-group members tend to brush away the sensitivities of minority-group members. If you're straight, you can walk hand-in-hand with your spouse without issue. You may even be able to embrace publicly, and kiss, hug and display all kinds of PDA. Gay couples can't do that without fear of reprisal, sometimes violently. Minority-group members are only "safe" in certain places. At a tech conference, women are in the minority, and so crass comments about/towards women are not perceived in a safe way. It's not your buddy making a funny joke, it's the majority-group members expressing oppression. Whether you personally agree with that is not the point; it's how minority-group members feel. Be aware of that.

dictum 14y ago
I've seen the same underlying assumption (that people should avoid accidentally offending other people even with things that aren't offensive) before. It was when a bigot tried to explain why gay people shouldn't make public displays of their sexuality because they made him uncomfortable.
IvyMike 14y ago
> crass comments about/towards women I think the original comment is raising the point that the comments were crass, but did not appear to be about or towards women in the slightest.
nawitus 14y ago
"At a tech conference, women are in the minority, and so crass comments about/towards women are not perceived in a safe way." Which didn't happen in this case.
scotty79 14y ago
My country has a law about offending religion. Almost whole population is to some degree religious. So not only minorities get offended. Recently local pop star was tried and sentenced because she said that Bible was written by heavily pissed and baked blokes and some people got offended. Protecting the offended can be a tool for bullying people that speak their mind or behave true to themselves. One might think that in this age of intense communication people would grow thinker skin. But Americans got more fragile instead.
kefka 14y ago
And I've always found that self-proclaimed feminists are _always_ offended and loud about it when they are. A few I know go to the point by saying females are better and that all masculine references should be eliminated. They need to vote with their pocketbooks: don't pay for a ticket, and don't attend. I went to a 'con recently: The Midwest RepRap festival. I heard no references to sex, sexuality, race, or anything of the sort. One sales person came around, got argumentative once we said we were not interested, and started to try to argue religion. That was perhaps, 10 minutes tops. Everybody else stayed absolutely professional about everything. Now, the last thing I want to hear at a tech conference is another tiring sex joke. It may be funny, but that's not why I'm here.
- icebraining 14y ago
  I've always found that self-proclaimed feminists are _always_ offended and loud about it when they are Have you found that to be true of male feminists as well?
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Feminists are people who believe men and women should be treated equally. Nothing more, nothing less. Classifying fanatics as "feminists" and acting like all feminists acts that way is ... well... pretty damn stupid.
  - nbouscal 14y ago
    That's actually really not accurate at all. If feminism were that simple of a concept, discussing it would be a hell of a lot easier. First off you have the whole "wave" notion, where feminism has changed dramatically over time. Second, most contemporary feminists are talking less about equality and more about diversity, and the value of alternate perspectives. As for whether fanatics get to be classified as feminists or not, it sounds like a classic No True Scotsman scenario to me.
    - kefka 14y ago
      I try to avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy. If you say you are a feminist, I accept. But what I say stands: every self proclaimed feminist I've met always get offended at the stupidest things. One I know even had a diatribe towards Carlin about the "personhole cover" because of his insensitivity. The usual stance many in this category take is equality regarded in Animal Farm: they are just "More Equal" <added> I live in Indiana, and had this haopen to me: I went into a car dealership, looking for a used car. Dealer walks up asking if I wanted to test drive or ask questions. Later on in negotiations, he went hardcore slimy. Along with that, said ,"You can trust me, I'm a good Christian." That was enough to get me to leave on the spot. Usually people with self-proclaimed titles are to be distrusted, or t least listened to with a very critical ear. It's also similar if I run around calling myself "Ub3r Haxx0r". Most of you would justly call BS.</added> Then, I have also met many who fight for women to be equal with men. They usually aren't much for the labels, yet will fight ferociously for the rights to be equal. Equal pay is the big one right now, considering pay parity is apart by 20%. Best said by a friend: when a woman hits a man, and the man hits back, and nobody gasps in astonishment, we shall be equal.
randallsquared 14y ago
Your analogy seems to reverse about halfway through. Not being able to make lewd jokes because the majority would find them offensive doesn't seem to apply, here. If, instead, you mean that being offended is, itself, something that you can't do without causing the majority to feel offense, if you're in the minority (as Adria was), I think that this analogy may be stretching too far, or going too meta, or something. :)

by cglee 14y ago

dictum 14y ago

I've seen the same underlying assumption (that people should avoid accidentally offending other people even with things that aren't offensive) before. It was when a bigot tried to explain why gay people shouldn't make public displays of their sexuality because they made him uncomfortable.

IvyMike 14y ago

> crass comments about/towards women I think the original comment is raising the point that the comments were crass, but did not appear to be about or towards women in the slightest.

nawitus 14y ago

"At a tech conference, women are in the minority, and so crass comments about/towards women are not perceived in a safe way." Which didn't happen in this case.

scotty79 14y ago

My country has a law about offending religion. Almost whole population is to some degree religious. So not only minorities get offended. Recently local pop star was tried and sentenced because she said that Bible was written by heavily pissed and baked blokes and some people got offended. Protecting the offended can be a tool for bullying people that speak their mind or behave true to themselves. One might think that in this age of intense communication people would grow thinker skin. But Americans got more fragile instead.

kefka 14y ago

And I've always found that self-proclaimed feminists are _always_ offended and loud about it when they are. A few I know go to the point by saying females are better and that all masculine references should be eliminated. They need to vote with their pocketbooks: don't pay for a ticket, and don't attend. I went to a 'con recently: The Midwest RepRap festival. I heard no references to sex, sexuality, race, or anything of the sort. One sales person came around, got argumentative once we said we were not interested, and started to try to argue religion. That was perhaps, 10 minutes tops. Everybody else stayed absolutely professional about everything. Now, the last thing I want to hear at a tech conference is another tiring sex joke. It may be funny, but that's not why I'm here.

icebraining 14y ago
I've always found that self-proclaimed feminists are _always_ offended and loud about it when they are Have you found that to be true of male feminists as well?
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Feminists are people who believe men and women should be treated equally. Nothing more, nothing less. Classifying fanatics as "feminists" and acting like all feminists acts that way is ... well... pretty damn stupid.
- nbouscal 14y ago
  That's actually really not accurate at all. If feminism were that simple of a concept, discussing it would be a hell of a lot easier. First off you have the whole "wave" notion, where feminism has changed dramatically over time. Second, most contemporary feminists are talking less about equality and more about diversity, and the value of alternate perspectives. As for whether fanatics get to be classified as feminists or not, it sounds like a classic No True Scotsman scenario to me.
  - kefka 14y ago
    I try to avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy. If you say you are a feminist, I accept. But what I say stands: every self proclaimed feminist I've met always get offended at the stupidest things. One I know even had a diatribe towards Carlin about the "personhole cover" because of his insensitivity. The usual stance many in this category take is equality regarded in Animal Farm: they are just "More Equal" <added> I live in Indiana, and had this haopen to me: I went into a car dealership, looking for a used car. Dealer walks up asking if I wanted to test drive or ask questions. Later on in negotiations, he went hardcore slimy. Along with that, said ,"You can trust me, I'm a good Christian." That was enough to get me to leave on the spot. Usually people with self-proclaimed titles are to be distrusted, or t least listened to with a very critical ear. It's also similar if I run around calling myself "Ub3r Haxx0r". Most of you would justly call BS.</added> Then, I have also met many who fight for women to be equal with men. They usually aren't much for the labels, yet will fight ferociously for the rights to be equal. Equal pay is the big one right now, considering pay parity is apart by 20%. Best said by a friend: when a woman hits a man, and the man hits back, and nobody gasps in astonishment, we shall be equal.

randallsquared 14y ago

Your analogy seems to reverse about halfway through. Not being able to make lewd jokes because the majority would find them offensive doesn't seem to apply, here. If, instead, you mean that being offended is, itself, something that you can't do without causing the majority to feel offense, if you're in the minority (as Adria was), I think that this analogy may be stretching too far, or going too meta, or something. :)