4 ms·

You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

by camus 14y ago

knowtheory 14y ago
Discrimination is not a zero-sum game. Just because people are talking about the way women are treated doesn't mean that people don't care about or are ignoring how black people are treated. Your experience does not negate the offenses directed at women, nor does their experience negate yours. It's unacceptable to treat people like this full stop, whether you're in tech or not.
- s_baby 14y ago
  A) 2nd wave feminism is a zero-sum ideology. Try talking about the education gap in public education or male rape and see how fast it turns into a victim-hood pissing contest. B) 2nd wave feminists see gender as the most fundamental form of discrimination with economical and ethnocentric discrimination being derivative and secondary. I can see why an African-American individual would be offended by middle class white women portraying their victim-hood as equal in severity to his. Not that the OP is guilty of either offense but it's cliche behavior in feminist circles.
  - knowtheory 14y ago
    Which feminist circles are these? How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all female enclaves in rural areas. I kind of regret the knee jerk posting, because i think camus intent wasn't to convey what i was accusing him of conveying. I think it was just a poor choice of words. But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the offenses that folks have to bear. But solidarity in the face of discrimination is like one of the most important things for actual equality. If those who believe in equality don't support each other, then we're all really up shit creek.
    - s_baby 14y ago
      >How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all female enclaves in rural areas. I live next to a women's college and my ex-gf comes from a family of 2nd wave feminists. >But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. That's an understatement. Look at the aftermath of raising rape awareness in America. Majority of the resources have gone to college campuses and middle class white areas. Even though these are the groups of women least likely to be the victims of abuse. Feminists have monopolized these resources to women of their own class and ethnicity.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    What you say is very true of mainstream white 2nd wave feminism. However, the heyday of the 2nd wave was decades ago and feminist thought and work (academic or not) has gone much beyond the absolutist kind of advocacy 2nd wavers had/have.
    - s_baby 14y ago
      2nd wave isn't the leading edge or majority but it's still a huge part of the ecosystem. Third Wave feminist might not commit to any one framework but they are often perfectly happy to take on the language of 2nd wave feminism when it's relevant to do so. When the stars align, these people take on the language of bigotry.
      - king_jester 14y ago
        I'm not really sure what you are arguing here. 2nd wave feminism has problems for sure, but they also got a lot right and and 2nd wavers have helped shaped the state of society today. Heck, some prominent woman suffarage folks in the late 1800s/early 1900s were eugenics advocates (which is super messed up), but that doesn't negate the positive things woman's suffrage accomplished. If you want to talk about the specific things you think that 3rd wavers are getting wrong about 2nd wave feminism, you'll have to be more specific because bigotry isn't limited to radfems who subscribe to 2nd waver philosophy.
        s_baby 14y ago
        >Heck, some prominent woman suffarage folks in the late 1800s/early 1900s were eugenics advocates (which is super messed up), but that doesn't negate the positive things woman's suffrage accomplished. This is still true today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men >If you want to talk about the specific things you think that 3rd wavers are getting wrong about 2nd wave feminism, you'll have to be more specific because bigotry isn't limited to radfems who subscribe to 2nd waver philosophy. First and foremost is the double standard afforded to 2nd wave bigotry. The smallest sexist offense incites a twittersphere rabble. Where is the rabble against transphobia taught by 2nd wave professors? Where is the rabble against the blatant misandry? Where is the rabble against anglo-centrism? All I've ever seen is a token effort. If these 2 men deserve to be kicked out of the convention, fired, and shamed then that more than equally applies to the bigots harbored by gender studies institutions. There's no good reason for such double standards. 3rd wave feminists will defend the inclusion of such bigotry through the lense of postmodern relativity but again such inclusion is not afforded to "outsiders" and the distinction between in-group and out-group is arbitrary.
- deleted 14y ago
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deleted 14y ago
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niggler 14y ago
I don't think anyone here is judging the comparative difficulties of various groups of minorities. It's recognized that most minority groups do face discrimination.
rmc 14y ago
Let's not play Opression Olympics here.
king_jester 14y ago
This is one of the interesting things about this pycon story in that Adria Richards is a black woman, experiencing the sexist and racist parts of the tech community. This whole incident highlights the intersection of those things in regards to how the tech community and internet at large reacts to someone who challenges micro-aggressions.
WalterSear 14y ago
Wow. A couple of my black friends said they were more sensitive of their race when they would visit their home, and that they felt more at ease in their work and silicon valley social groups than with their relatives and childhood friends. One of them spent her holidays alone, rather than go home, or visit with other people's families because it was too distressing. IMHO, it was really a class issue masquerading as race but regardless, it sucked. People need to grow the fuck up.

You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

by camus 14y ago

You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

knowtheory 14y ago

Discrimination is not a zero-sum game. Just because people are talking about the way women are treated doesn't mean that people don't care about or are ignoring how black people are treated. Your experience does not negate the offenses directed at women, nor does their experience negate yours. It's unacceptable to treat people like this full stop, whether you're in tech or not.

s_baby 14y ago
A) 2nd wave feminism is a zero-sum ideology. Try talking about the education gap in public education or male rape and see how fast it turns into a victim-hood pissing contest. B) 2nd wave feminists see gender as the most fundamental form of discrimination with economical and ethnocentric discrimination being derivative and secondary. I can see why an African-American individual would be offended by middle class white women portraying their victim-hood as equal in severity to his. Not that the OP is guilty of either offense but it's cliche behavior in feminist circles.
- knowtheory 14y ago
  Which feminist circles are these? How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all female enclaves in rural areas. I kind of regret the knee jerk posting, because i think camus intent wasn't to convey what i was accusing him of conveying. I think it was just a poor choice of words. But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the offenses that folks have to bear. But solidarity in the face of discrimination is like one of the most important things for actual equality. If those who believe in equality don't support each other, then we're all really up shit creek.
  - s_baby 14y ago
    >How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all female enclaves in rural areas. I live next to a women's college and my ex-gf comes from a family of 2nd wave feminists. >But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. That's an understatement. Look at the aftermath of raising rape awareness in America. Majority of the resources have gone to college campuses and middle class white areas. Even though these are the groups of women least likely to be the victims of abuse. Feminists have monopolized these resources to women of their own class and ethnicity.
- king_jester 14y ago
  What you say is very true of mainstream white 2nd wave feminism. However, the heyday of the 2nd wave was decades ago and feminist thought and work (academic or not) has gone much beyond the absolutist kind of advocacy 2nd wavers had/have.
  - s_baby 14y ago
    2nd wave isn't the leading edge or majority but it's still a huge part of the ecosystem. Third Wave feminist might not commit to any one framework but they are often perfectly happy to take on the language of 2nd wave feminism when it's relevant to do so. When the stars align, these people take on the language of bigotry.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      I'm not really sure what you are arguing here. 2nd wave feminism has problems for sure, but they also got a lot right and and 2nd wavers have helped shaped the state of society today. Heck, some prominent woman suffarage folks in the late 1800s/early 1900s were eugenics advocates (which is super messed up), but that doesn't negate the positive things woman's suffrage accomplished. If you want to talk about the specific things you think that 3rd wavers are getting wrong about 2nd wave feminism, you'll have to be more specific because bigotry isn't limited to radfems who subscribe to 2nd waver philosophy.
      - s_baby 14y ago
        >Heck, some prominent woman suffarage folks in the late 1800s/early 1900s were eugenics advocates (which is super messed up), but that doesn't negate the positive things woman's suffrage accomplished. This is still true today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men >If you want to talk about the specific things you think that 3rd wavers are getting wrong about 2nd wave feminism, you'll have to be more specific because bigotry isn't limited to radfems who subscribe to 2nd waver philosophy. First and foremost is the double standard afforded to 2nd wave bigotry. The smallest sexist offense incites a twittersphere rabble. Where is the rabble against transphobia taught by 2nd wave professors? Where is the rabble against the blatant misandry? Where is the rabble against anglo-centrism? All I've ever seen is a token effort. If these 2 men deserve to be kicked out of the convention, fired, and shamed then that more than equally applies to the bigots harbored by gender studies institutions. There's no good reason for such double standards. 3rd wave feminists will defend the inclusion of such bigotry through the lense of postmodern relativity but again such inclusion is not afforded to "outsiders" and the distinction between in-group and out-group is arbitrary.
deleted 14y ago
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deleted 14y ago

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niggler 14y ago

I don't think anyone here is judging the comparative difficulties of various groups of minorities. It's recognized that most minority groups do face discrimination.

rmc 14y ago

Let's not play Opression Olympics here.

king_jester 14y ago

This is one of the interesting things about this pycon story in that Adria Richards is a black woman, experiencing the sexist and racist parts of the tech community. This whole incident highlights the intersection of those things in regards to how the tech community and internet at large reacts to someone who challenges micro-aggressions.

WalterSear 14y ago

Wow. A couple of my black friends said they were more sensitive of their race when they would visit their home, and that they felt more at ease in their work and silicon valley social groups than with their relatives and childhood friends. One of them spent her holidays alone, rather than go home, or visit with other people's families because it was too distressing. IMHO, it was really a class issue masquerading as race but regardless, it sucked. People need to grow the fuck up.