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In response to the dev on HN 2 days ago, Adria said[1]: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider,

In response to the dev on HN 2 days ago, Adria said[1]: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

pekk 14y ago
"See you next year." Understood meaning: I am right, you are wrong, you are eating crow; after I publicly bullied you and got you fired, you are not getting away from me.
- untog 14y ago
  What? I'm sorry, but if you can interpret a phrase like "See you next year" in that way then it might be worth speaking to a professional.
  - eropple 14y ago
    I'm of two minds here. Normally, I would agree that it's an innocuous thing to say; I mean, I use the phrase all the time at conferences! That said, I am not so sanguine here; between Ms. Richards's bad faith actions (and you may disagree that she dealt with them in bad faith and that's fine) and her non-apology (I think this is fairly inarguable), I think that it's not unreasonable to infer a negative connotation to the phrase. Especially if you look at it from that dude's perspective, where a not-unreasonable reading might be "she started a massive shitstorm over a joke that could offend a hypothetical person and now I'm fired and why would I ever want to see her again?". Context does matter.
    - itsprofitbaron 14y ago
      FWIW I think that the "See you next year" comment was in response to the fact that he (the guy who was fired) said he will be at pycon in 2014[1] and before stating his side of the story, he said that he defended her position[1]: "First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 (As I mentioned earlier this also includes his side of the story)
      - eropple 14y ago
        Yeah, I read it it the first time it came up. Doesn't really change how it reads to me; IMO at least it becomes so ridiculously difficult to not dig an even deeper hole that comments like that really can't be taken at face value. Maybe he's the rare exception for which it is, but on the occasions where I've had to eat dirt for a screwup like that I'm pretty sure I wasn't thinking "man, I hope I see this person again!". Or maybe I'm the weird one. Who knows? =) (EDIT: I'd also like to note that that is a pretty well-written apology. It's also, you know, an apology. Which Ms. Richards's is not; hers is more of a "non-apology apology", an "I'm sorry that you X" which we really, really need to stamp out as a "thing". Good on him.)
doktrin 14y ago
At the risk of nitpicking, expressing sympathy != apology. "I am sorry to hear X" is an expression of condolence.
fatjokes 14y ago
"I'm sorry to hear" is the standard non-apology apology. It's like "I'm sorry you got offended."
- niggler 14y ago
  " ... I hope they reconsider, bring you back on ..." She didn't fire the guy. The most she could say is that she doesn't think he should have been fired over this, and I read that part of the quote (repeated above) as reflection of my point.
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    You're right. She didn't fire the guy. She cyber bullied him. She could have apologised for that, but didn't. N.B.: She can do (or not do) what she wants, and it doesn't bother me, but please don't confuse what she said as an apology.
    - niggler 14y ago
      She is not sorry for what she said, and that's fine. That's her prerogative. I take issue with people blaming her for the company firing the guy. She didn't accuse them of a felony or other crime. She pointed to what she thought was inappropriate and the employer overreacted. I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. Few are asking why, if the joke were so trivial (I also happen to think the joke was rather silly and personally didn't take offense), the employer decided to fire him.
      - fatjokes 14y ago
        > I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. This definitely shows that PlayHaven does not have their employees backs, but for me at least: 1. PlayHaven is in a tough spot. If they defended their employee, it might look as if they're not being tough on sexism, which the industry is heavily focusing on right now. Perhaps they figured it would be safer to be heavy-handed. Perhaps some form of light punishment (suspension? demotion?) would've been the best approach, but too late for that now. 2. I don't know about others, but I don't expect employers to have my back. The upside of this is that I owe them no loyalty either. In a way, this is already the case. Most employees will leave when a better job comes along. It's certainly to some employers' credit that they protect their own, but it's not expected. (At least not in America. In Japan, this use to be the case, but even so, it's becoming less and less so). I think the negativity has focused on Adria because she turned a minor complaint into a witch hunt.
dsmithn 14y ago
That's not an apology.

pekk 14y ago

"See you next year." Understood meaning: I am right, you are wrong, you are eating crow; after I publicly bullied you and got you fired, you are not getting away from me.

untog 14y ago
What? I'm sorry, but if you can interpret a phrase like "See you next year" in that way then it might be worth speaking to a professional.
- eropple 14y ago
  I'm of two minds here. Normally, I would agree that it's an innocuous thing to say; I mean, I use the phrase all the time at conferences! That said, I am not so sanguine here; between Ms. Richards's bad faith actions (and you may disagree that she dealt with them in bad faith and that's fine) and her non-apology (I think this is fairly inarguable), I think that it's not unreasonable to infer a negative connotation to the phrase. Especially if you look at it from that dude's perspective, where a not-unreasonable reading might be "she started a massive shitstorm over a joke that could offend a hypothetical person and now I'm fired and why would I ever want to see her again?". Context does matter.
  - itsprofitbaron 14y ago
    FWIW I think that the "See you next year" comment was in response to the fact that he (the guy who was fired) said he will be at pycon in 2014[1] and before stating his side of the story, he said that he defended her position[1]: "First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 (As I mentioned earlier this also includes his side of the story)
    - eropple 14y ago
      Yeah, I read it it the first time it came up. Doesn't really change how it reads to me; IMO at least it becomes so ridiculously difficult to not dig an even deeper hole that comments like that really can't be taken at face value. Maybe he's the rare exception for which it is, but on the occasions where I've had to eat dirt for a screwup like that I'm pretty sure I wasn't thinking "man, I hope I see this person again!". Or maybe I'm the weird one. Who knows? =) (EDIT: I'd also like to note that that is a pretty well-written apology. It's also, you know, an apology. Which Ms. Richards's is not; hers is more of a "non-apology apology", an "I'm sorry that you X" which we really, really need to stamp out as a "thing". Good on him.)

doktrin 14y ago

At the risk of nitpicking, expressing sympathy != apology. "I am sorry to hear X" is an expression of condolence.

fatjokes 14y ago

"I'm sorry to hear" is the standard non-apology apology. It's like "I'm sorry you got offended."

niggler 14y ago
" ... I hope they reconsider, bring you back on ..." She didn't fire the guy. The most she could say is that she doesn't think he should have been fired over this, and I read that part of the quote (repeated above) as reflection of my point.
- dfxm12 14y ago
  You're right. She didn't fire the guy. She cyber bullied him. She could have apologised for that, but didn't. N.B.: She can do (or not do) what she wants, and it doesn't bother me, but please don't confuse what she said as an apology.
  - niggler 14y ago
    She is not sorry for what she said, and that's fine. That's her prerogative. I take issue with people blaming her for the company firing the guy. She didn't accuse them of a felony or other crime. She pointed to what she thought was inappropriate and the employer overreacted. I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. Few are asking why, if the joke were so trivial (I also happen to think the joke was rather silly and personally didn't take offense), the employer decided to fire him.
    - fatjokes 14y ago
      > I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. This definitely shows that PlayHaven does not have their employees backs, but for me at least: 1. PlayHaven is in a tough spot. If they defended their employee, it might look as if they're not being tough on sexism, which the industry is heavily focusing on right now. Perhaps they figured it would be safer to be heavy-handed. Perhaps some form of light punishment (suspension? demotion?) would've been the best approach, but too late for that now. 2. I don't know about others, but I don't expect employers to have my back. The upside of this is that I owe them no loyalty either. In a way, this is already the case. Most employees will leave when a better job comes along. It's certainly to some employers' credit that they protect their own, but it's not expected. (At least not in America. In Japan, this use to be the case, but even so, it's becoming less and less so). I think the negativity has focused on Adria because she turned a minor complaint into a witch hunt.

dsmithn 14y ago

That's not an apology.