5 ms·

"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" I'm not

• niggler 14y ago
  "the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment." This isn't just in tech. Some females testified before congress that the same problem was happening in the military, and there the senior officer is given precedence due to his position
• Goronmon 14y ago
  I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment. But there is a big difference between mentioning something to someone or someone's boss in private, and posting about it on Twitter with a picture attached.
  • CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
    But everyone else seems to like a good pitchfork witch hunt!
    • WalterSear 14y ago
      There's must be a way to monetize this, turn it into an industry, or at least, a full time career.
      • benologist 14y ago
        Mashable just did!
        • WalterSear 14y ago
          Are you saying gizmodo was beaten to the punch?
          • benologist 14y ago
            Gizmodo will just summarize mashable. Eventually AOL will decide they should be the #1 search term for 'python' and 'sendgrid' and their content mill will start working those phrases and beat them all. Then they'll all congratulate themselves for raising the journalistic bar one cheap SEO trick and even cheaper "I can't believe it's not plagiarism" rewording at a time.
      • untog 14y ago
        It's called cable news.
        • WalterSear 14y ago
          touche. Now I remember why I don't have TV.
        • niggler 14y ago
          Fox News is a cash cow, and MSNBC is trying to get into the game
• antonej 14y ago
  Whistleblower concerns are totally legit, but that assumes the whistleblower follows common-sense normal procedures (e.g., telling the event organizers in private, or even calling their boss). The learning point here is about the manner in which the alleged harassment was "reported" -- trumpeted to the entire world via social media with photos attached.
  • salman89 14y ago
    I completely agree, and we as a society need to learn how to live in a world where a single tweet by an semi-influential figure can cause such a shit storm. How liable are people for actions resulting from a tweet? If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences?
    • dangrossman 14y ago
      > If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences? A published false statement that damages someone's reputation? That's libel. Whatever harm is done as a result of the malicious tweet would be repaid to you as damages in court.
    • jiggy2011 14y ago
      > If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences? You're basically fucked.
      • codesuela 14y ago
        You go to court an sue for defamation.
        • jiggy2011 14y ago
          Assuming you live that long. "Hey 10M people, this guy is a pedo. I just saw him molest a child, here's a google maps link to his current location". Even if the issue goes to court, your public image is basically done for regardless of the outcome so the damages would need to be very substantial.
• blhack 14y ago
  Sure, and that is a legitimate problem that everybody has to face. "How much should I let myself be offended before I speak up about it?" But that is NOT what happened here. She even said in her blog post that she didn't find the fact that "dongle" and "dong" sound similar offensive. She decided to try and humiliate these guys over some desire to protect the possible future of some kid whose picture was being shown on stage at the time.
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  • king_jester 14y ago
    > Sure, and that is a legitimate problem that everybody has to face. "How much should I let myself be offended before I speak up about it?" For someone in a marginalized group, they hear constant micro-aggression from a large amount of people daily. Each one of those comments and encounters builds that feeling of not belonging and resentment. That is the context in which folks have to deal with this kind of thing, so they are typically dealing with more than just that one incident you hear about.
    • katbyte 14y ago
      That's not excuse for snapping and overreacting to the extremes she did. There were avenues for her to express her discomfort and she op[ted for the most extreme and disproportionate option.
      • king_jester 14y ago
        This doesn't make sense to me. Tweeting a pic and complaining to pycon staff are not extreme in any way. Blogging about that experience to share information about what kind of micro-aggressions someone may face at a con is not extreme.
        • katbyte 14y ago
          The only action she made that was extreme was posting the photo identifying it. Everyone else was OK. Everyone else was great! but the photo was out of line for something so minor, or as you say micro. It would have been a non-story if she hadn't identified them with a photo. Not only that there 3 people in the photo, she doesn't even identify who it was and i feel for that poor guy on the left who had nothing at all to do with it. She had no regard for the damage her actions could and did cause others and that makes her far worse then the man who made a stupid joke. he was a unprofessional and immature. She was a bully.
• pekk 14y ago
  The problem is not at all that Ms. Richards is a "tattletale," i.e. that she reported a problem to PyCon. Nobody has a problem with that.
  • hesdeadjim 14y ago
    Right, it is 100% reasonable to be offended by conduct inappropriate for the event and to bring it to their attention. To grossly abuse your power and demonize two individuals who do not have a forum in which to rebut your accusations -- not okay.
    • blhack 14y ago
      But it wasn't inappropriate for the event. Adria notified the goons [or whatever pycon calls them], they came by, talked to everybody, and then nothing happened. They even amended their code of conduct to prevent what Adria did from happening in the future. And the CoC is pretty obviously directed at presenters, not people having a pseudo-private conversation with one another.
      • masklinn 14y ago
        > But it wasn't inappropriate for the event. It was absolutely inappropriate, even if not expressly specified so in the (since amended) CoC. It's easy to know that it was not appropriate to the event: mob justice never is an appropriate first-order response. And no, it was no more appropriate a response to Adria's behavior. The whole clusterfuck is a direct result of recursive mobbing. > Adria notified the goons [or whatever pycon calls them] "Staff". Because that's what they are: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents-staff/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... Also, as I understand how things happened Adria first tweeted the picture (and comment), then notified staff. Your comment seems to imply it happened the other way around and she was essentially forced to tweet due to PyCon staff inaction. > they came by, talked to everybody, and then nothing happened. Eh? The guys who had made the inappropriate joke were temporarily removed to a private space, discussions happened, they agreed it was "in poor taste" and apologized, then were sent on their merry way: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr... Seems enough happening for an inappropriate but rather tame joke in an overhear-able private conversation. > And the CoC is pretty obviously directed at presenters You're high as a kite. Here's the third paragraph of the CoC: > To make clear what is expected, all delegates/attendees, speakers, exhibitors, organizers and volunteers at any PyCon event are required to conform to the following Code of Conduct emphasis mine. Note that "speakers" are a separate category from "delegates" (company presence) and "attendees" (private individuals). And the text repeatedly notes all attendees are expected to follow the CoC and may be removed upon breach.
• clivestaples 14y ago
  Which is why claims should should be mediated by a neutral third-parties (HR, court system, etc). Adria went the court of public opinion first and everyone got scorched.
• Macsenour 14y ago
  "real harassment" I agree, but this is not harassment when she over hears a comment not directed at her. I agree with your point that women might feel less inclined, but frankly they should feel less inclined to overhear a conversation, take offense, take a picture, and post it to twitter.
• nilkn 14y ago
  I'm honestly curious what this even has to do with women. That's what puzzles me most about this whole incident. Maybe I'm insensitive or ignorant. I'll admit it if that's the case and learn. Right now, though, I just don't get it. I just don't see how a dongle joke is sexist. It's anatomical. It might have some mild sexual undertone, but there's a huge difference between sexism and a sexual undertone--they aren't the same thing at all. Maybe if I heard the exact joke it would help. But I've heard just as many penis jokes from women as I have men.
  • devilshaircut 14y ago
    I agree with you that it is at worst an anatomical joke that is not funny and hasn't the slightest sexual undertone to it.
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  • dfxm12 14y ago
    You're correct. This isn't about women, just one woman in particular. If there's one thing women don't like, it's being lumped together and generalised... :P
  • btilly 14y ago
    According to her account, the dongle joke came in a discussion of how the men would like to be thanked for having helped sponsor the conference. Shortly after they were making "forking" jokes riffing off of a conversation that she was in. When she was the only woman sitting near. If so (I am basing this on her account, so definitely an if here), then the sexual overtone is not that mild, and (rightly or wrongly) she appears to have felt personally targeted. Though in a way that is plausibly deniable. Does that help you understand why she might have had a strong emotional reaction? Of course the actual actions she took were the wrong ones to take, and caused the whole thing to go nuclear. But the way our brains are wired causes us, when feeling strong emotion, to skip all of our normal logic and self-control and just react. So what she did was highly unfortunate - definitely not what you want to see from your company's public face - but understandable.
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• devilshaircut 14y ago
  I in fact agree with you and think you are 100% right but I think you are parsing the situation incorrectly. In fact it seems to be Ms. Richards who will cause women to be reluctant to report real sexual harassment. Let me draw from a past experience of mine involving a female colleague who was sexually harassed. She related the situation to me and I had absolutely no doubt that what was said to her was inappropriate and needed to be reported to HR. I in fact encouraged her to bring the issue to HR. She told me she was highly reluctant to say anything because she was afraid it would affect the perception of her in the office. This is a real and legitimate concern for women in the workplace today. But the fact is, the person she, and women like her, do not want to be seen as is Ms. Richards. My female colleague had experienced a real threat in her workplace that was truly hostile. Ms. Richards demeans very real threats to gender equality in the workplace by using a penis joke told in a private conversation to deal real, public damage senselessly. I am greatly concerned for my female colleagues who are lumped into the same "team" as Ms. Richards, particularly in the inevitable case that they do experience truly awful sexual harassment or threat.
  • doktrin 14y ago
    This is perhaps the greatest tragedy of this whole debacle. It has simultaneously trivialized sexism & discrimination while promoting the paranoid fear that any minor innocuous comment could end up as a shitpile trainwreck on Twitter. By calling out a non-thing as a wolf, she has effectively raised the bar on real harassment being reported. Likewise, otherwise well intentioned men will be looking over their shoulder when making even harmless comments, promoting a gender division in the workplace.
    • devilshaircut 14y ago
      I absolutely agree with you that this is potentially the greatest travesty and that the whole thing is a debacle. I reposted this story on my Facebook and literally the only people who commented on it were my female friends/colleagues in the technology industry. Needless to say their reaction was a collective groan. It is so unfortunate because - as we agree - sexism is such a huge problem that we are certainly not exempt from. And situations like this dilute the real struggles women face in a male-dominated industry.
• ericb 14y ago
  I agree, and I think sexism is a problem in the industry, but on the other hand, wasn't she sort of "eavesdropping"? How do you draw the line?