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Personally, batteries-included frameworks like Cappuccino scare me off for a few reasons: 1. I have to learn Objective-J. I've been web programming for years a

by STRML 14y ago

Personally, batteries-included frameworks like Cappuccino scare me off for a few reasons: 1. I have to learn Objective-J. I've been web programming for years and I've become really good at Javascript. I even enjoy it. Other frameworks don't require learning a new language. 2. Time spent learning Cappuccino is only good for programming Cappuccino apps. Time spent in micro frameworks generally translates to other frameworks. Backbone is so bare-metal that it is very easy for Javascript programmer to feel comfortable. 3. Batteries-included frameworks often have "their" way of doing things that are not extensible. This can lead to awkward situations where you need behavior that is just not possible without monkey-patching the hell out of the frameworks and getting yourself stuck on a particular version. 4. I can't speak to Cappuccino, but a similar framework, ExtJS, has (for 4 major versions and nearly 10 years) lacked a build and minification system that didn't suck. This means you must include all dependencies, leading to 1.2MB+(minified!) blobs of JS that can take upwards of 10 seconds or more to load even on fast connections. For business-class apps running on B2B contracts, that might be fine. For public-facing webapps, this is murder. 5. People like micro frameworks because they can use every brand new & shiny piece of JS that shows up on the web without worrying about compatibility. And they can use {HTML5 feature} without worrying about compatibility. I'm sure Cappuccino does a better job than most when it comes to this sort of thing, but what happens when the devs lose interest? Years of "Objective-J" experience go to waste.

randomdata 14y ago
> I have to learn Objective-J. Objective-J is a Javascript superset, so everything you know about Javascript is still available to you. It will take minutes to learn the additions. The language is not really the problem. Its the framework that will take quite some time to learn. There are a ton of interfaces to work with. I suspect that is why you feel more comfortable with something like Backbone, because it basically brings nothing to the table, so there is very little to learn. > Time spent learning Cappuccino is only good for programming Cappuccino apps. Not exactly. The API is nearly identical to Cocoa on the Mac, and very similar to Cocoa Touch on iOS. If you know any of the three, you should be able to transition between the frameworks without much trouble. You can even use Apple's own Interface Builder to build your Cappuccino interfaces, to give you some idea of how similar they really are. There is also GNUStep, but that's probably not a big selling point, granted. Perhaps the time spent is less valuable if you have no interaction with Apple devices, but I suspect a lot of people interested in web development also have an interest in mobile development where knowing how to develop for iOS does have quite a bit of value.
- STRML 14y ago
  You're right. I'm not an Apple dev so I don't see much of the utility but I'm sure there are many who do. Certainly, if I were a native iOS programmer looking to do a rich web app, Cappuccino would be my first choice. All of these frameworks fulfill a need (otherwise they wouldn't exist). I think the author expected that, because Cappuccino filled his needs so well, that it would fill everyone else's. He is now venting his frustration that this is not true.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    My takeaway from it was not him venting about nobody using Cappuccino, it was that developers wouldn't spend even a small amount of time to evaluate it in the first place. "if it's going to take me at least a day or two before I begin to understand, how long is it going to take the rest of my team?" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411474) If you have not spent that day or two to understand, how can you know it does not fill your needs? I actually do not think Cappuccino is a good fit for a lot of the places Backbone and the like are being used. The unfortunate part comes when people will still use Backbone where Cappuccino is the right tool just because Objective-J "looks scary", or some other non-technical reason of emotion.

by STRML 14y ago

randomdata 14y ago

> I have to learn Objective-J. Objective-J is a Javascript superset, so everything you know about Javascript is still available to you. It will take minutes to learn the additions. The language is not really the problem. Its the framework that will take quite some time to learn. There are a ton of interfaces to work with. I suspect that is why you feel more comfortable with something like Backbone, because it basically brings nothing to the table, so there is very little to learn. > Time spent learning Cappuccino is only good for programming Cappuccino apps. Not exactly. The API is nearly identical to Cocoa on the Mac, and very similar to Cocoa Touch on iOS. If you know any of the three, you should be able to transition between the frameworks without much trouble. You can even use Apple's own Interface Builder to build your Cappuccino interfaces, to give you some idea of how similar they really are. There is also GNUStep, but that's probably not a big selling point, granted. Perhaps the time spent is less valuable if you have no interaction with Apple devices, but I suspect a lot of people interested in web development also have an interest in mobile development where knowing how to develop for iOS does have quite a bit of value.

STRML 14y ago
You're right. I'm not an Apple dev so I don't see much of the utility but I'm sure there are many who do. Certainly, if I were a native iOS programmer looking to do a rich web app, Cappuccino would be my first choice. All of these frameworks fulfill a need (otherwise they wouldn't exist). I think the author expected that, because Cappuccino filled his needs so well, that it would fill everyone else's. He is now venting his frustration that this is not true.
- randomdata 14y ago
  My takeaway from it was not him venting about nobody using Cappuccino, it was that developers wouldn't spend even a small amount of time to evaluate it in the first place. "if it's going to take me at least a day or two before I begin to understand, how long is it going to take the rest of my team?" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411474) If you have not spent that day or two to understand, how can you know it does not fill your needs? I actually do not think Cappuccino is a good fit for a lot of the places Backbone and the like are being used. The unfortunate part comes when people will still use Backbone where Cappuccino is the right tool just because Objective-J "looks scary", or some other non-technical reason of emotion.