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I think i'll buy into the fact that they're dedicated and willing to fix this when they will have links to the official support page, and changed again this ban

I think i'll buy into the fact that they're dedicated and willing to fix this when they will have links to the official support page, and changed again this banner to something like : "37signals decided to handle their web-support by themselves. You can reach them at <url>". Their site is build upon a conception about "big evil companies", thor said that himself in the so called open letter. So it makes every company on their site that hasn't suscribed to their thing an evil one by definition. Now don't get me wrong, this can be very good, when it is true. And very bad and harmfull when it isn't This is not a technical issue. This is a structural flaw into the conceptual design of their website, so maybe they meant no harm, but that's not the point at all. If they can't fix it, it would probably be better for everyone if they went down. On a brighter note, it's probably not that hard to fix. But it needs to be taken very seriously. Also i don't buy the garrett dimon line, even if i understand his motivations. Those companies also leave in a world where they have very real possibilities of harming each others. So in the end, the fact that they're "really good people" is totally emotional and strictly not related to the issue in place here. And the fact that they're willing to fix, while a good thing, is also tied in my opinion with the fact they did a mistake that could have hurt anybody in the community. So this is not 'nice' of them, it's just well, the regular attitude to have !

tokenadult 18y ago
Their site is build upon a conception about "big evil companies", thor said that himself in the so called open letter. They may find out that big, well advised companies that stay within the law can crush little start-up companies without good legal advice like bugs.
swombat 18y ago
This is not a technical issue. This is a structural flaw into the conceptual design of their website, so maybe they meant no harm, but that's not the point at all. Of course that is the point! Intention is important, not just actions. It makes a world of difference. Every business is "flawed" in some sort of way - if only because they all aim to trounce their competition and make money. But there's a whole lot of difference between a business that willfully takes unethical steps that they know are morally wrong, and one that merely makes a mistake. Until I see proof that the GetSatisfaction team is actually a collection of thugs, I will believe the various reports that indicate they're just like the rest of us - nice, smart guys trying to solve a real problem as well as they can.
- Raphael_Amiard 18y ago
  Well i believe someone said "With great power comes great responsibilities" I'm not saying intentions are not important. I'm saying what you get as an outside observer is the facts, not the intentions. GS business is directly built upon the existence of other societies, particularly internet related ones. It's actually the whole purpose of the site. So , as nice as they may be, they DO have a responsability about what they do with the image of theses societies, and a way bigger one than anyone's else site wich is not making added value with the society's technical support, or lack thereof. This responsability is real, and they failed at assuming it. That doesn't make them thugs, or mafia or anything, unless we have proof of such things ;) But it does make them pretty irresponsible people, since they failed on the particular point that is supposed to be the key of their business ! Now i'm not saying it's dramatic or anything. They're probably nice people. I'm just saying than saying sorry, even with the nicest of attitudes,and changing this banner, isn't gonna cut it until they make all the changes needed to adress every point made on 37s. Also i don't think it's particularly nice to play the card of "We're a nice little harmless startup, we're struggling, don't throw bad words at us". They did real harm. In what proportions, that is difficult to estimate. I probably would have thought along the same lines as the guys from 37s, wich do not have a duty to play nicely with people that , besides all you could say about their niceness, still potentially harmed their business.
  - Raphael_Amiard 18y ago
    I think this topic is bringing a lot of emotional involvement, since swombat has been downvoted a second ago even if his post is totally reasonable and calm , and just now i've been downvoted, for no apparent reason since i'm totally reasonable in my words too, so i guess maybe we should just stop arguing ;) Also, isn't downvoting supposed to be used for offensive posts, and if so, how were our posts offensive ?
  - swombat 18y ago
    "With great power comes great responsibilities" Taking a leaf from that book, 37-Signals do have great power, with SvN, which is a very influential blog read by many people in the start-up ecosystem. They should then also have the responsibility to use that influence for good, not evil. Viciously attacking another start-up without warning is not a good action. A big difference between GS and 37S there is that GS can plausibly suggest that this was unintentional, whereas 37S actively published this attack on their blog. So where intention is concerned, 37S are the bad guys.

tokenadult 18y ago

Their site is build upon a conception about "big evil companies", thor said that himself in the so called open letter. They may find out that big, well advised companies that stay within the law can crush little start-up companies without good legal advice like bugs.

swombat 18y ago

This is not a technical issue. This is a structural flaw into the conceptual design of their website, so maybe they meant no harm, but that's not the point at all. Of course that is the point! Intention is important, not just actions. It makes a world of difference. Every business is "flawed" in some sort of way - if only because they all aim to trounce their competition and make money. But there's a whole lot of difference between a business that willfully takes unethical steps that they know are morally wrong, and one that merely makes a mistake. Until I see proof that the GetSatisfaction team is actually a collection of thugs, I will believe the various reports that indicate they're just like the rest of us - nice, smart guys trying to solve a real problem as well as they can.

Raphael_Amiard 18y ago
Well i believe someone said "With great power comes great responsibilities" I'm not saying intentions are not important. I'm saying what you get as an outside observer is the facts, not the intentions. GS business is directly built upon the existence of other societies, particularly internet related ones. It's actually the whole purpose of the site. So , as nice as they may be, they DO have a responsability about what they do with the image of theses societies, and a way bigger one than anyone's else site wich is not making added value with the society's technical support, or lack thereof. This responsability is real, and they failed at assuming it. That doesn't make them thugs, or mafia or anything, unless we have proof of such things ;) But it does make them pretty irresponsible people, since they failed on the particular point that is supposed to be the key of their business ! Now i'm not saying it's dramatic or anything. They're probably nice people. I'm just saying than saying sorry, even with the nicest of attitudes,and changing this banner, isn't gonna cut it until they make all the changes needed to adress every point made on 37s. Also i don't think it's particularly nice to play the card of "We're a nice little harmless startup, we're struggling, don't throw bad words at us". They did real harm. In what proportions, that is difficult to estimate. I probably would have thought along the same lines as the guys from 37s, wich do not have a duty to play nicely with people that , besides all you could say about their niceness, still potentially harmed their business.
- Raphael_Amiard 18y ago
  I think this topic is bringing a lot of emotional involvement, since swombat has been downvoted a second ago even if his post is totally reasonable and calm , and just now i've been downvoted, for no apparent reason since i'm totally reasonable in my words too, so i guess maybe we should just stop arguing ;) Also, isn't downvoting supposed to be used for offensive posts, and if so, how were our posts offensive ?
- swombat 18y ago
  "With great power comes great responsibilities" Taking a leaf from that book, 37-Signals do have great power, with SvN, which is a very influential blog read by many people in the start-up ecosystem. They should then also have the responsibility to use that influence for good, not evil. Viciously attacking another start-up without warning is not a good action. A big difference between GS and 37S there is that GS can plausibly suggest that this was unintentional, whereas 37S actively published this attack on their blog. So where intention is concerned, 37S are the bad guys.