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Dart is Google's attempt to kill off another OpenWeb technology. This time their sights are trained on Javascript. Dart : Javascript :: Reader : RSS

by andyl 14y ago

lvivski 14y ago
Dart is a language and a platform behind it. It's really easy do develop advanced applications in Dart and then translate them to javascript. But you are also able to run it in a separate VM.
Inufu 14y ago
Not really. Dart and Javascript are both languages, while Reader is an application that uses RSS. Having spoken with one of the people who works on Dart, the idea is not to kill an open standard (why would Google do that?), but rather to fix the horrible mess that is Javascript. Same thing for the shutdown of Reader - how does that prevent you from using any other RSS reader?
- andyl 14y ago
  -> the idea is not to kill an open standard (why would Google do that?) Controlling the language gives you unique power over the whole ecosystem. Google gets to decide what is permissible, and what is not. Google is tearing out their OpenWeb support and building walled gardens. The more Dart becomes popular, the more we become locked in to Google, and the more our options and possibilities are constrained.
  - michaelwww 14y ago
    By your logic, Linux users are locked into a walled garden Linus Torvalds created. If Dart becomes popular, there's nothing stopping Mozilla and Microsoft from creating a Dart Compiler and VM. It's encouraged in fact. JavaScript will continue to be the target language of many transpilers such as Clojure and CoffeeScript. People will use whatever tool suits their needs.
    - andyl 14y ago
      -> By your logic, Linux users are locked into a walled garden Linus Torvalds created. That's right. Linus defines what is possible. Witness the recent UEFI controversy. Had Microsoft (or Google) been in charge of Linux, you'd have to obtain a corporate license just to boot a freeware OS. The entity that controls the foundation technology is vitally important. So-called enhancements like UEFI or Dart are always introduced with benign intentions. "to make the web more secure" "to improve performance" "to protect the children" The end result is more corporate control, more centralization, fewer options for individuals and small organizations. A bunch of people who have downvoted my anti-Dart posts are Dart engineers. I think Dart engineers are really smart, and have produced a great technology. I don't think Dart engineers are scheming to bring down Javascript. But I don't think Reader engineers built their product with a plan to wipe out alternative readers and damage RSS. I don't think Calendar engineers planned to vacuum up the competition then remove the CalDAV option to migrate their data. But that's what happened. It would be a shame if Javascript were similarly compromised.
kyrra 14y ago
Dart at this point is being directed by Google, but it is totally open source. So if Google decided they wanted to stop working on it, you would still be free to do what you'd like with it. The Dart code[1], which includes the VM, dart2js, editor, analyzer, and all libraries are under new BSD license. The entire contents of the dartlang.org website are even on Github[2] under Creative Commons, so you can submit pull requests to have any page on the website updated. While it's direction is being decided by Google, they are taking a lot of input from the community via the mailing lists and bug submissions. Though, it is not driven by committee like EMCAScript is, I'm ok with that for now. I believe when Dart was originally launched they said they would consider submitting the language as an ISO standard once it has become more stable, which may still happen. [1] https://code.google.com/p/dart/ https://code.google.com/p/dart/ [2] https://github.com/dart-lang/dartlang.org https://github.com/dart-lang/dartlang.org
- sethladd 14y ago
  [disclaimer, I work on the Dart team] Yes, one of the long term goals of the language is standardization. The project is open source, we have external committers, and we've taken numerous patches. Pull Requests welcome!
  - coldtea 14y ago
    Since you're on the Dart team, something I always wanted to say re: Dart. The main chance I see for the language getting adoption is to start from the server side, if Google could sponsor a full featured web framework in the language with async capabilities, talking to major DBs, and other batteries. Basically a Dart Rails or Django (maybe a little scaled back in the beginning). Sure, you can let the community create several competing frameworks, like this one. But nothing will get traction like a Google-backed, with 1-2 full time employees behind it, nice documentation et al.
aviraldg 14y ago
Conspiracy theorists -- you guys are such a bunch! Languages that compile to JS are very common in 2013 web dev. For a large section of web developers, JS is little more than "the VM of the web."
- ahoge 14y ago
  > Languages that compile to JS are very common in 2013 web dev. Here is a nice list: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-lang...
michaelwww 14y ago
Dart is an Open Web technology and JavaScript is necessary for it to work on browsers other than Dartium.

Dart is Google's attempt to kill off another OpenWeb technology. This time their sights are trained on Javascript. Dart : Javascript :: Reader : RSS

by andyl 14y ago

Dart is Google's attempt to kill off another OpenWeb technology. This time their sights are trained on Javascript. Dart : Javascript :: Reader : RSS

lvivski 14y ago

Dart is a language and a platform behind it. It's really easy do develop advanced applications in Dart and then translate them to javascript. But you are also able to run it in a separate VM.

Inufu 14y ago

Not really. Dart and Javascript are both languages, while Reader is an application that uses RSS. Having spoken with one of the people who works on Dart, the idea is not to kill an open standard (why would Google do that?), but rather to fix the horrible mess that is Javascript. Same thing for the shutdown of Reader - how does that prevent you from using any other RSS reader?

andyl 14y ago
-> the idea is not to kill an open standard (why would Google do that?) Controlling the language gives you unique power over the whole ecosystem. Google gets to decide what is permissible, and what is not. Google is tearing out their OpenWeb support and building walled gardens. The more Dart becomes popular, the more we become locked in to Google, and the more our options and possibilities are constrained.
- michaelwww 14y ago
  By your logic, Linux users are locked into a walled garden Linus Torvalds created. If Dart becomes popular, there's nothing stopping Mozilla and Microsoft from creating a Dart Compiler and VM. It's encouraged in fact. JavaScript will continue to be the target language of many transpilers such as Clojure and CoffeeScript. People will use whatever tool suits their needs.
  - andyl 14y ago
    -> By your logic, Linux users are locked into a walled garden Linus Torvalds created. That's right. Linus defines what is possible. Witness the recent UEFI controversy. Had Microsoft (or Google) been in charge of Linux, you'd have to obtain a corporate license just to boot a freeware OS. The entity that controls the foundation technology is vitally important. So-called enhancements like UEFI or Dart are always introduced with benign intentions. "to make the web more secure" "to improve performance" "to protect the children" The end result is more corporate control, more centralization, fewer options for individuals and small organizations. A bunch of people who have downvoted my anti-Dart posts are Dart engineers. I think Dart engineers are really smart, and have produced a great technology. I don't think Dart engineers are scheming to bring down Javascript. But I don't think Reader engineers built their product with a plan to wipe out alternative readers and damage RSS. I don't think Calendar engineers planned to vacuum up the competition then remove the CalDAV option to migrate their data. But that's what happened. It would be a shame if Javascript were similarly compromised.

kyrra 14y ago

Dart at this point is being directed by Google, but it is totally open source. So if Google decided they wanted to stop working on it, you would still be free to do what you'd like with it. The Dart code[1], which includes the VM, dart2js, editor, analyzer, and all libraries are under new BSD license. The entire contents of the dartlang.org website are even on Github[2] under Creative Commons, so you can submit pull requests to have any page on the website updated. While it's direction is being decided by Google, they are taking a lot of input from the community via the mailing lists and bug submissions. Though, it is not driven by committee like EMCAScript is, I'm ok with that for now. I believe when Dart was originally launched they said they would consider submitting the language as an ISO standard once it has become more stable, which may still happen. [1] https://code.google.com/p/dart/ https://code.google.com/p/dart/ [2] https://github.com/dart-lang/dartlang.org https://github.com/dart-lang/dartlang.org

sethladd 14y ago
[disclaimer, I work on the Dart team] Yes, one of the long term goals of the language is standardization. The project is open source, we have external committers, and we've taken numerous patches. Pull Requests welcome!
- coldtea 14y ago
  Since you're on the Dart team, something I always wanted to say re: Dart. The main chance I see for the language getting adoption is to start from the server side, if Google could sponsor a full featured web framework in the language with async capabilities, talking to major DBs, and other batteries. Basically a Dart Rails or Django (maybe a little scaled back in the beginning). Sure, you can let the community create several competing frameworks, like this one. But nothing will get traction like a Google-backed, with 1-2 full time employees behind it, nice documentation et al.

aviraldg 14y ago

Conspiracy theorists -- you guys are such a bunch! Languages that compile to JS are very common in 2013 web dev. For a large section of web developers, JS is little more than "the VM of the web."

ahoge 14y ago
> Languages that compile to JS are very common in 2013 web dev. Here is a nice list: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-lang...

michaelwww 14y ago

Dart is an Open Web technology and JavaScript is necessary for it to work on browsers other than Dartium.