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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

• sp332 14y ago
  Props to PyCon (and jnoller especially) for taking the issue seriously and not over-reacting or playing CYA.
• deleted 14y ago
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• coldtea 14y ago
  That's nice. Especially when the harassment is "two friends taking to each other in some row".
• danso 14y ago
  > Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect I think the "out of respect" is unnecessary and somewhat nonsensical. Out of respect for whom? I think it's fine to just say that PyCon, like any reasonable organization, doesn't participate or condone in such public shaming, period...because the reasons to not engage in it are myriad.
  • milkshakes 14y ago
    It's on Github... Fork it and make a pull request?
    • escaped_hn 14y ago
      I'de fork that repo.
    • freehunter 14y ago
      Easy with that word...
  • gcb0 14y ago
    True. It's mambo jambo just to make a point that they've dealt with the issue. You know what would be better for the conference? A no pictures policy like defcon. That way,people would not be able to violate others privacy for their own agendas.
    • saurik 14y ago
      (Your point stands, but it is at least interesting that DEFCON apparently removed that policy, AFAICT.)
      • gcb0 14y ago
        can't find anything newer than this https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-20/dc-20-press.html https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-20/dc-20-press.html "July 26 – 29th, 2012" [...] "Photography/video without explicit permission is forbidden."
        • saurik 14y ago
          > 3) Don't be surprised if you get your picture taken. > For good or bad, the DefCon policy of no pictures/video is gone. So don't be surprised if people randomly take your picture... Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll put you on their facebook. -- http://defcon.stotan.org/faq/rules.htm http://defcon.stotan.org/faq/rules.htm > Then there was a policy change. (Last year?) that pretty much said, "cameras are okay anywhere at Defcon" though there were disagreements on how much was included with "everywhere at Defcon" such as CTF players, room, and screens. > Yea it was changed last year, but I still told everyone at 101 NOT to take pictures without permission (ie: While DefCon Policy say's this, you may want to do this) And I probably will do it again, because it's a good rule to have. The "Policy" may say that pictures can be taken anywhere at anytime. But the actuality of the situation is that people may still get really really pissed at some random person taking their photo. -- https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=12309&highlight=photographs https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=12309&highligh...
    • fyi80 14y ago
      Note: "mumbj jumbo" is the term. "mambo jambo" is incredibly racist against Latinos, but I promise not to try to get you fired over it, or call you an "ass clown"
• Zikes 14y ago
  Should this open the door to a discussion about the ethics of public shaming?
  • pyre 14y ago
    Public shaming is a tool in the kit, but in this case it was the first one that she reached for. From her blog post, it sounded like it was out of frustration over other incidences (maybe even worse cases of offence / harassment) that she had also ignored. It was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak, and unleashed her pent up anger/frustration. Personally, I think that there were other avenues to pursue this, without resorting to public shaming. It adds nothing to the generic goal of 'improving the community for women (present and future)' which seemed to have been on her mind (at least from her blog post). Talking about it in public promotes that goal, but naming names does not.
    • Zikes 14y ago
      I very reluctantly have to agree that it is a tool in the kit, however as far as tools go I would have to liken it to resorting to a government coup because that pothole you reported last week still hasn't been filled. Sure it might be necessary in extreme situations, but equally extreme discretion and forethought is absolutely necessary. As to it being a culmination of other offenses, that's a bit too speculatory for my taste. Who's to say the other alleged offenses weren't just as minor, to such a degree that, as in this case, I might not consider them an offense at all? I do agree that it did not add anything to the goal of improving the community for women. If anything, it should be seen as a setback. As it is, this only serves to instill fear in men such that any slight misstep could result in extreme disciplinary action, ranging from public humiliation to loss of income.
      • danielweber 14y ago
        Public shaming is essentially an appeal to the mob. And mobs are very dangerous. The API for class InternetMob has exactly one function call: start(). You can't tell if it succeeded or failed, or if it will succeed later. You cannot stop it after it has started. Even if it succeeds in going after your initial target, it may then turn on someone else you do like, or even yourself.
• RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  Instead of a learning opportunity, this has turned into an enormous fustercluck. It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter, but it was not wrong for her to address the matter. Similarly, nearly everyone can agree - including Richards - that the employer who allegedly fired one of the people involved in the incident clearly overreacted. There are learning opportunities in these incidents - opportunities to learn the best way to address a real issue when it comes up. The goal should be growing awareness and respect, apology and forgiveness, and reconciliation. But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the biggest learning opportunity of all: the opportunity for an entire community to recognize that it is still dysfunctional in terms of gender equality. Edit - SendGrid just announced that they have fired Richards. Yet another instance in this cluster of reactive ugliness and missed opportunities.
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  • jiggy2011 14y ago
    It got crossposted on various places that have little/nothing to do with programming, so hopefully most of the nasty stuff was just from random dickheads rather than the python community.
    • theorique 14y ago
      Bingo. The meanest reactions have been people with a particular axe to grind rather than Python community members.
      • Millennium 14y ago
        The problem with this is that it gets into dueling fallacies. Your opposition is arguing from induction (judging the whole based on the actions of a few), with a generous helping of Black Swan (deliberately ignoring counterexamples in favor of personal experience). But you're going on No True Scotsman (excluding people from a group based on factors that don't actually have anything to do with group membership) with a side of the Fallacy Fallacy (assuming that a fallacious argument must therefore be incorrect). Public shaming is a very powerful thing, and not inherently good or evil. Some people need to be shamed for what they've done, and others need the threat of shaming to keep them in line. But shaming's power makes it dangerous, and not to be used without very careful, independent verification that it's warranted: that wrongdoing was indeed committed, that it was committed by the target, and that shaming is both appropriate and necessary as a consequence of that wrongdoing. The "independent" part of that is important. Even if we discount the possibility of malice, there are too many ways for things to go wrong. Definitions can be unreasonable, identities can be mistaken, memories can be faulty, evaluations can be based on incomplete information, and so on. The involved parties are, in all but the most egregious cases, not qualified to make those decisions unilaterally: they're too close to the incident. In all but the most egregious cases, the involved parties are too close to the incident to be qualified to make these decisions unilaterally. Even in the most egregious cases, the very things that make one side qualified to make some of those decisions also disqualify that side from making the others, which is why we have courts in the first place. I think PyCon's actions here are quite appropriate, and a marked improvement from the earlier code of conduct. There's room to improve even further -there should be some basic outline of a process for reviewing and investigating incidents- but this is still a step in the right direction.
• kjackson2012 14y ago
  They forgot to add that all childish jokes should not be shared amongst each other, ever.
  • pcote 14y ago
    Childishness, silliness, and lewdness is a core part of what Monty Python was about. Monty Python's style of humor was encouraged in the Python programmer culture from the beginning. It's ironic that Pycon's policy would prevent me from publicly reciting some of my favorite Flying Circus skit lines.
    • feralmoan 14y ago
      She could have just slapped him with a fish like any grown adult would do and found a more deserving target of righteous indignation.
    • agateform 14y ago
      A true Pythonista would not be offended by a dongle joke. The following link has a penis song from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life http://youtu.be/p9PiqCeLEmM http://youtu.be/p9PiqCeLEmM
    • tomjen3 14y ago
      Well if the enforcer was dressed like a Colonel, then maybe people would accept it.
  • rozap 14y ago
    No silliness will be tolerated. I hate silliness.
• JulianMorrison 14y ago
  I disagree. Public shaming is the right way to make harassers actually fear the consequences (to their career, for example).
  • sp332 14y ago
    She complained to the PyCon staff, who quickly mediated a discussion between her and the guys she complained about. They apologized and everyone was OK. No career-related consequences necessary.
    • cooldeal 14y ago
      I believe that the PyCon staff noticed the tweet and took action, I don't think she complained to them.
      • pyre 14y ago
        Her blog post said that she was composing a text to the organizers, but that was after she tweeted the photo and her location (asking for others to 'shut the guys up'). Seems like PyCon organizers probably picked up on the tweets before the text message (if it was sent) did anything.
  • shared4you 14y ago
    One should not take law into his own hands. If one is harassed, s/he should complain to right authority (police, lawyer, Pycon organizers, etc.). The one who was publicly-shamed can file a defamation suit and you'll be in trouble.
  • throwaway125 14y ago
    Public shaming shows only one perspective. Furthermore this perspective can potentially be fabricated. Public shaming is akin to vigilante justice, and we as a society decided that was a bad way of "justice" for very good reasons.
  • theorique 14y ago
    Which gets to the definition of harassment, right? Were these guys in a private, joking conversation harassing or simply overheard by accident? Think fast ... your job could depend on it.
• deleted 14y ago
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• jagermo 14y ago
  I'm a little confused, what about privacy laws? Yes, you are at a conference, but that doesn't give anybody the right to take your picture and post it on twitter, without asking your permission, right? (Sorry, German here, so if the laws in the US are completly different, please ignore).
  • 0x44 14y ago
    With very constrained exceptions, in most jurisdictions of the United States, it's entirely legal to take a photograph of an individual in a public place and post it to the Internet without their permission.
    • objclxt 14y ago
      Bear in mind they were not in a public place, but a conference venue - which would almost certainly be private property. It is totally legal to prohibit photography in such cases. However, normally this has to be made explicit (through signs, or the like) - it's assumed it is allowed unless otherwise stated. I wonder if going forward conferences will consider banning photography in future, for better or for worse.
      • jagermo 14y ago
        Thank you for the explanation, that clears a lot of things up around this topic
      • shardling 14y ago
        I'd be a little surprised. The photograph doesn't seem to really be the issue, just an obvious thing that Adria did "wrong" for people to seize upon. It seems like the exact same situation could occur if she had simply reported them through their names rather than through photography.
  • freejoe76 14y ago
    The operative phrase here is "reasonable expectation of privacy," as in, you're fair game to have your photo taken unless you have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
• nonrecursive 14y ago
  I applaud the PyCon organizers for clearly delineating what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I especially applaud them for including public shaming in the "unacceptable" category. The rest of their code is there to protect conference goers. The sections discussing harassment are there for a reason - harassment is a real problem at these events. Similarly, conference goers should be protected from the threat of being publicized as a less-than-human creature on the Internet. There's been some discussion of the reaction to Adria and Jesse. There could just as likely have been a strong, dangerous reaction to the men who made the comments. Saying "these guys are a threat to women" on the Internet could actually put them in danger, and no one should expect to be put in that situation by attending PyCon.
  • alxp 14y ago
    > There could just as likely have been a strong, dangerous reaction to the men who made the comments. 'dangerous'? Really? Are people who fight against sexism really 'just as likely', is in, have displayed a pattern of the same behaviour in the past? Or is this a false equivalency?
    • nonrecursive 14y ago
      Let me put it another way. Do you think that every conference goer should behave the way Adria did? Whenever a conference goer feels offended, he or she should immediately take photos, publish them on Twitter and on a blog post along with insults like "asshat" and otherwise humiliate the individuals as publicly as possible? The reason I ask is so I can figure out whether you're debating whether it's OK to publicly shame people in this manner, or whether you're quibbling over the degree of risk you're exposing someone to when you publicly shame them the way Adria did.
• OoTheNigerian 14y ago
  After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men. 2. I find it hard to see how taking their pictures and "shaming" them would have made anything thing better. It only set them up to be lynched verbally or otherwise. 3. It was a PRIVATE conversation in a public setting that was overheard. It happens to the best of us. There are 100s of bloopers on YouTube of broadcasters saying embarrassing things when the mic was supposed to be off. 4. She appears hypocritical because at the same PYCON she sexual jokes on Twitter (far much more public) while representing her company (having your company on your profile is almost same as wearing a badge at a conference. Not to include the use of the PYCON hashtag) 5. As a DEVELOPER evangelist for her company, she should be more patient with developers by a massive factor compared to people in other roles. It makes no sense evangelizing for/to people that would be uncomfortable dealing with you. Appeal to understanding, not fear. 6. It is good to know she can stand for herself. Unfortunately, I have to say she got the incident and methodology wrong. All this will pass, and hopefully serve as a lesson for participants and us observers. Edited: Spelling of Adria
  • imsofuture 14y ago
    1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.
    • aviraldg 14y ago
      Then that someone doesn't get to publicly shame me for what is offensive to them, and doesn't have the right to ask me to stop. My joke. Not meant for you. Stop listening.
      • 14y ago
• dos1 14y ago
  One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly outed on Twitter with no opportunity to defend myself. I believe that Adria Richards did not handle the situation appropriately. I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I believe that she's further stoking the internet's rage by refusing to admit any fault. I think the other women that are jumping to her defense are doing themselves, and women in technology a disservice. They are not thinking critically or putting themselves in the conference attendee's shoes. I'm quite sure they would not like to be publicly outed for a private conversation. Public shaming was not the right way to handle the situation. An apology from Adria would have gone a long way in defusing the situation. She chose not to go this route. I'm sad that a silly penis joke turned in to this. Preemptive Edit: I do NOT believe that ANYONE should suffer the wrath of the Internet. I do NOT believe that ANY conference attendees should have to sit idly by and listen to penis jokes. I'm only saying that publicly shaming these guys was a mistake, and that an apology for the mistake could have basically fixed the problem before it got this far.
  • SallySinep 14y ago
    I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I can't find anything resembling a penis joke in her recent Twitter feed.
    • lopatin 14y ago
      https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425
      • SallySinep 14y ago
        Thanks (so it was 6 days before her "outing" those guys, not the day after). Either way, the hypocrisy she exhibits is quite astounding. Those in glass houses...
• d4vlx 14y ago
  I think the key here is to treat everyone like people. By publicly shaming two individuals and associating them with sexism they are being turned into figureheads for sexism. Real people make mistakes, say stupid things, are affected by their environments and upbringing, have prejudices and biases that they acquired from a life-time of interacting with other people. Everyone is like this, many people do not even realize what some of their biases or prejudices are. Turning them into into figureheads strips away the complexity and says "these guys are what is wrong". Which is complete and utter bullshit. They were just two guys having a private conversation. If someone says something in private that you disagree with then you should bring it up with them in private or get and intermediary, like the conference organizers to. They may have been very sensitive to gender issues and sympathetic to her agenda but she will never know because she never put the effort into discussing it with them.
• stefantalpalaru 14y ago
  Too little, too late.
• throwawayabc 14y ago
  This is tricky. "Dear Attendees, If you feel you're being harassed, please don't tell anyone but us. Thanks." As a general rule I think we should be working to empower people to handle situations on their own (part of that handling will likely include notifying organizers). Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference, not necessarily mediate disputes. Do I happen to think that "public shaming" was appropriate here? Probably not. Do I think it's been effectively used by many groups in the past to effect change, yes. The fact that PyCon and many other conferences have adopted a code of conduct is evidence of this. When a group asks me to constrain how I behave outside the confines of their event (on twitter for example) I tend to apply it universally. If I can't talk about the bad I most definitely will not talk about the good. I'll not have a third party filtering my communication that way.
  • Nursie 14y ago
    That's not really what it says though - "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential, please do not disclose public information about the incident until the staff have had sufficient time in which to address the situation. " It's saying 'please tell us first and give us a chance to sort it out to everyone's satisfaction'. That's really not tricky at all.
  • nawitus 14y ago
    You can tell everyone about the issue and not name any names or post photographs that identify people.
  • AnIrishDuck 14y ago
    > As a general rule I think we should be working to empower people to handle situations on their own I totally agree. There is nothing here prohibiting you from telling immature people to cut it out. > Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference, not necessarily mediate disputes. The only thing this "disenfranchises" you from is trying to start lynch mobs whenever you feel like it. That is rarely an appropriate method of mediating disputes or resolving a problem, and I am totally happy that they are discouraging it. > Do I happen to think that "public shaming" was appropriate here? Probably not. Do I think it's been effectively used by many groups in the past to effect change, yes. Public shaming is a drastic measure. It should only be used if you have exhausted other more reasonable methods of resolving your problems. You should only reach for that hammer when you face systemic issues. I have seen no evidence that the PyCon staff turns a blind eye to sexism or inappropriate comments. That's the kind of thing that deserves public shaming; when the system itself is broken. > The fact that PyCon and many other conferences have adopted a code of conduct is evidence of this. Yes, but once you have a system that is working, you threaten its efficacy by continuing to try to effect change in spite of it. > When a group asks me to constrain how I behave outside the confines of their event (on twitter for example) I tend to apply it universally. They are not telling you how to behave outside the confines of their event. They are telling you that the appropriate venue to bring your disputes at PyCon is to the PyCon staff, not your legion of twitter followers. If the PyCon staff doesn't handle things appropriately, then go ahead and start handing out torches and pitchforks.
• scott_meade 14y ago
  Passive public shaming could be the future with Google Glass and like tech. Your behavior won't need to be actively "reported". If it happens within range of someone wearing Glass, what you say and do could simply be recorded, indexed, and searchable by anyone.
• chernevik 14y ago
  They can amend the rules all they like but they'll never arrive at a set that properly covers all the various behaviors that people rightly find objectionable. In the process of trying they'll very likely end up with a set of contradictory and/or impossibly ambiguous rules. They'll also encourage people to think that by compliance with the rules they've done all they need to. They'll encourage still others to abuse the rules in ways detrimental to other people. And they'll discourage a lot of harmless and possibly useful / interesting / fun discussion out of fear that it will be interpreted as a violation. Gender bias and stereotyping are problems of culture. The various violations are all questions of judgment. Those judgments will always depend on questions of context. That doesn't mean the problems are unimportant or that there can't be consensus judgments of a full set of facts. But it does mean you cannot solve questions of integrity and intent and interpretation with external rules.
• gcb0 14y ago
  Nothing to see here. She manipulated a bunch of guys (dressed up as woman, smiled while taking their pictures, giving a very false and manipulative premise) and publicly difamed them over something he/she overheard. Which could be totally taken out of context... To be honest, anon taking an interest on her is a fitting end for someone who values the privacy of others so low like she proven to.
• largesse 14y ago
  Nice start, but it needs to come down directly on use of social media to harass a conference participant. It's not strong enough for what she did.
• squozzer 14y ago
  Huh. And here I thought the reason people organized socially was to exclude the unlikable.
• malachismith 14y ago
  The comment thread here is incredibly sad and depressing and perfectly illustrates how deeply misogyny is threaded through this community and industry. You might want to go and find a female friend and have them read what you wrote. I think their responses might be enlightening.
  • jeltz 14y ago
    Please do not attack entire communities. Especially like now when there have been very few misogynist comments in this discussion.
• spotchecker 14y ago
  Good. I think Adria might even agree in retrospect given the way she responded to the man who joked about saved pubic hair. Or should a picture have been taken and posted of him too? Curious what she thinks.
• rburhum 14y ago
  Having experienced PyCon for the first time this year, I am extremely saddened by how these events have unfolded. Ironically, I think this particular issue is eclipsing how female and kid friendly this conference is. I have attended and spoken and several conferences (probably reaching the upper 80s) and this year's PyCon was more female-supportive than any other conference I have ever attended (Google IO, OSCON, WWDC, Where, BarCamps, etc etc). Honestly, I was (happily) surprised about how many women attended and spoke. 20%! Of course, this number may seem low if you just blur it out, but in our industry, if you have ever attended any other tech conference, you will realize why 20% is such a high number. The amount of attention and support PyLadies got from the PyCon/Python community was nothing short of outstanding. I sat during the PyCon PyLadies Fundraiser auction. I saw how crappy card games and posters signed by Guido and PyCon organizers sold for $300. I saw how the community managed to get "A 30-min Walk from Jack Dorsey" as one of the things to be auctioned. You don't just get that an item like that by sitting idle. Somebody from the PyCon community had to pull some strings and go through some efforts to get that for PyLadies. Heck, some guy, 1hr before the auction just gave his personal Chromebook for auction because he wanted to help the PyLadies cause. PyLadies raised 10K in less than 2hrs. All community-driven. I have never seen - in any conference - a community putting so much effort to push the goal of increasing women in tech. Never. And yet all this drama is painting such a different picture of what I would consider the best conference I have ever attended. The biggest effort I have seen for women in tech, out-shadowed by a silly penis joke and all the drama that ensued after that. To the PyCon organizers and PyLadies community as a whole: Don't let this get to you. You did an amazing job. To me, it was such an inspiring conference, that it will always be in my schedule. The large amount of kids coding in python and playing with their Raspberry Pis, the ad-hoc tech donations that were being done teachers, the support to PyLadies, all that stuff that really matters, did not go unnoticed. It is just that we are not as loud as the rest. But we care. Thank you!!!
  • AnIrishDuck 14y ago
    > Ironically, I think this particular issue is eclipsing how female and kid friendly this conference is. This is the biggest thing that bugs me. PyCon this year was awesome, and instead of talking about record attendance and all the other positive things we're talking about a stupid dick joke.
• shocks 14y ago
  The problem is not PyCon. This is not an issue that should be solved by changing a code of conduct. This is a problem with a person and her over zealous and ridiculous actions. Let's be clear here, there should be nothing wrong with making dick jokes to your friend. Did he say "Haha, look at these dongles. They look like dicks. But we don't need them because have dicks! Maybe they should give these to the women so they can be better programmers with big dicks like us."? No. We are living in a world where people increasingly feel the need to be "personally offended" by things that don't even involve them. What if the male in question made an Englishman, Irishman, and Scotishman joke? Hell, they're pretty fucking funny! And you know what? They involve the Englishman doing something desperately stupid. Being an Englishman, am I offended? Fuck no. This entire situation is beyond ridiculous.
  • tomjen3 14y ago
    It seems that of late sex (or talk about sex) = sexism. Well no wonder then, that we can't have decent penis joke no more.
    • pekk 14y ago
      Let it not be forgotten that talking about sex in the wrong way in the wrong context actually is abusive. If they were talking about Adria's body parts, or what they would like to do to Adria. Or propositioning her for sex. Or saying "hey baby" to her. Or trying to start a creepy conversation with her about her sex habits. These are among astronomically many possible examples of how you can talk inappropriately about sex to someone. As a general rule, don't talk about sex to strangers, if you can't pick up any pattern of what is abusive or not.
      • tomjen3 14y ago
        Ah, but then they would be talking about her, not about sex.
• fyi80 14y ago
  Eventually, egalitarians will noticed that they are being played the fool by self-serving hate-mongers who care nothing about building a better world, and care everything about picking fights and dragging people down.
  • deleted 14y ago
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• asciimo 14y ago
  Here is the tweet that seems to have motivated the patch to the PyCon Code of Conduct: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313417655879102464 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313417655879102464
• shadowmint 14y ago
  I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that. It's not just Adria. Remember John Scalsi and "When Gut-Boys Attack"? http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/14/when-gut-boys-attack/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/14/when-gut-boys-attack/ Same thing. Take a person, smash them publicly, and hope that the everyone watching will get the idea and stop doing that thing, because of fear of similar punishment. ...but, I was under the impression there was a pretty well defined protocol for handling public sorts of hate-speech like antisemitism, and trolling, and that had been shown in all kinds of circumstances not to work. You get all the same reactions we've seen here; a social reaction against the 'shaming' group to socially prevent similar shaming from happening in the future. Which totally mitigates the potential benefit of the original action. The correct responses have always been: 1) Don't engage with obvious trolls. These are a lost cause. You're wasting everyone's time. 2) Speak positively about the topic instead of negatively about the other person 3) Engage with the people who are doing the wrong thing and try to correct their behavior so they become mini-champions of 'the right way' in their own community, thus spreading correct behavioral policy organically. I thought that this was well known stuff; we certainly covered it in college. I'm boggled by this whole bizaar extravaganza. It's such a cliche.
  • king_jester 14y ago
    > I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that. The main point for public airing of this information is to inform others of the attitudes and behaviors that exist and to provide evidence of an actual problem. > 3) Engage with the people who are doing the wrong thing and try to correct their behavior so they become mini-champions of 'the right way' in their own community, thus spreading correct behavioral policy organically. This only works if you are a member of the peer group of the people doing the wrong thing. In the case of adria richards, she is a woman of color addressing behavior that tends to come from men, so I don't think it is fair to say that this would be a realistic thing to do.
  • tomjen3 14y ago
    3) is horrible. It only works if you assume that you are so much smarter and have more knowledge than the people who are involved in the issue, and that you can therefore come up with an argument that they haven't heard before that is still so utterly convincing that they turn 100% around.
• SagelyGuru 14y ago
  There is a certain category of an especially nasty person who loves taking up 'high moral ground', as it is generally promulgated by powers that be of their time, and using it to mercilessly destroy their fellow human beings. They are drunk with evil power and the sheer simplicity of it: just apply a glib label to your victim. Pagan, heretic, catholic, protestant, blasphemer, republican, communist, anti-communist, racist, sexist.... Nothing new under the Sun. I wonder what will be the next 'in-vogue' label. The labels change but the type of person who is fond of using them is always the same, always nasty.
• fibbery 14y ago
  Seriously? Dick jokes aren't misogynist,and the joke the guy made wouldn't even earn a PG rating. Plus, it's a private conversation. If they had said something truly sexist (eg commenting about the body parts of a female presenter) I would at least understand being offended, but public shaming would still not be justified for an eavesdropped conversation. It sucks, but it's really apparent that this woman used the hot button issue of sexism at tech conferences (which is a legitimate problem in professional presentations) to get attention for herself and her personal "brand" of anti sexism crusader... meanwhile, crying wolf like this potentially reduces the chance that later complaints will be taken seriously, and that actual sexism will be written off as a similar case of 'help help I'm being oppressed'!
  • alxp 14y ago
    Dick jokes may or may not be misogynistic depending on the intent and the context. The default assumption that a woman's actions are to attract attention? That's misogynistic. Stop doing that.
    • fibbery 14y ago
      OK, so I should have clarified the type of dick joke.. if the joke was "I'd like to put my dongle in her input jack" it'd be at the very least sexist. This one was not. "The default assumption that a woman's actions are to attract attention" That is not at all my default assumption. In fact, I'm very much on the side of the women who do experience sexual harassment at conferences and are brave enough to speak up about it. But as for the circumstances here (joke that was pretty benign and didn't concern her, public shaming) and the person involved, yes, I do believe it was for attention.
• afreak 14y ago
  Since when does everyone have the right to being offended? To put this into context, Adria is most certainly allowed to be bothered the comments made during this conversation. However, there has to be a distinction between whether or not this is private or public. If this fellow went on stage and then started to make these jokes, it could be considered inappropriate and as a result she would in my mind have a valid complaint. It is similar to how Michael Richards made some rather off-colour remarks about a certain ethnicity on stage, which as a result ruined his career. If he had made these comments in private, I'd imagine that he'd still be making terrible attempts at sitcom pilots. However, when it is a conversation between two parties where she wasn't included but just ended up overhearing it, then she has no right to complain. These guys may be obnoxious to you, but you can remove yourself from the situation quite easily. Tweeting a photo of them was uncalled for however, but she could have still made a photo-less quip about them which would have been appropriate. Public shaming people for their private conversations is uncalled for when it is specifically targeted. Adria doesn't need to apologise for being bothered over it, but she certainly should for going about it the way she did. [edit] Sendgrid responded: Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards. While we generally are sensitive and confidential with respect to employee matters, the situation has taken on a public nature. We have taken action that we believe is in the overall best interests of SendGrid, its employees, and our customers. As we continue to process the vast amount of information, we will post something more comprehensive.
• ricleal 14y ago
  Less than 30 mins ago: "Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards" https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967 https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967
• pbreit 14y ago
  Why does a conference about a programming language need a code of conduct? Does anyone even read it before conducting? I know it gets a lot of attention after conducting.
• nkuttler 14y ago
  It appears that Adria Richards herself was just fired. https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967 https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967
• blhack 14y ago
  I just want to remind everybody in this thread that the "offending, sexual comments" were two adult men joking that "dongle" and "dong" sound the same.
• gosukiwi 14y ago
  Feminists so fun
• njharman 14y ago
  I don't see how penis jokes, fucking jokes, etc. are in anyway sexism, misogyny or otherwise against women. They're against prudes and the sexually repressed. They're inappropriate in some contexts. If you feel they are sexist, etc. It is you who are being sexist and demeaning cause you've accepted the stereotype that women should be virginal, sexually repressed, are frail and weak needing protected from thoughts of sex, sexual innuendo, etc.
• jackowayed 14y ago
  There are some things people in these threads are chronically getting wrong. First, lots of people are making the claim that this was a "private" joke. It was not. If it was a private joke and they shouldn't be punished for that reason, then they should have been able to say anything, and as long as everyone who was meant to be in the private conversation appreciated it, it would be wrong to punish them because it was private. So here's an example: What if they made a joke wherein they said, "Let's lynch a <n word>"? They likely would have been kicked out, could easily have been fired, and no one would have much sympathy for them. Why? Because it's not in private. They were at a conference, which is a community gathering with community standards to make sure that everyone feels welcome, and they were talking when literally surrounded by attendees they don't know. What they say absolutely has an effect on how welcome others feel. We've decided that it's important enough that all feel welcome that we've made codes of conduct. So once we've established that there are things they could have said that would make their behavior unacceptable, you're now saying "that comment didn't warrant this response", not "this was a private conversation! how could they ever kick them out or fire them for that?" And at that point, we get to all the arguments that this joke "wasn't sexist". It is true, that the joke itself was not sexist; it did not objectify women, suggest that they are less than men, etc. But it was contributing to aspects of the tech industry's culture that make it less welcoming to women, and for that reason, it is unacceptable at a professional conference. (It's also just crude and might make some men uncomfortable, and so is unacceptable for that reason too.) In nearly every context that a woman in tech finds herself, she is surrounded by men. This can often make them feel somewhat unwelcome or uncomfortable. Even little things, like a few people who make comments suggesting that they're nontechnical, or a few people asking them out at every single meetup they go to, can make them feel less comfortable and less valued for what they came to the conference to do--be technical. Anything that contributes to the feeling of the conference being a boy's club, or sexualizes the environment, can make this worse. Finally, many people ask, "Why didn't she just say something to them?" While I don't think going straight to twitter was the best she could have done, I also don't think people understand how difficult it can be to approach someone and call them out on behavior that makes one feel uncomfortable, especially in a space where one already does not feel especially welcome or taken seriously. If everyone yells, "you should have just talked to them!" every time a woman immediately complains to organizers about inappropriate behavior, you're just encouraging more women to silently feel unwelcome, and likely drop out of the community, rather than speaking up and helping make the community better. I agree that, when comfortable, directly speaking with the offending party is best way to deal with these problems, but those who have been made uncomfortable have absolutely no responsibility to do so, and shouldn't be pushed to do it even if they are not comfortable with it.
• kailuowang 14y ago
  IMHO, this is another perfect example of conflict caused by communication failure. If Adria communicated her feeling when she heard the joke to the joker he would've apologized immediately and nothing would've happened afterwards. Many more people would've remained a calmer and more pleasant mood.
• rdl 14y ago
  I'm incredibly impressed by how PyCon has handled this whole thing (both their CoC and how they arbitrated it, and their success in attracting 20% women to a programming conference.) Compare it to e.g. the BSidesSF fiasco. One of the awesome things about Python is that two of the best Python developers I know are female, along with maybe 20-30% of "good" programmers who program primarily in Python being female as well. It really seems like one of the more inclusive technical communities. I wonder how much of that is due to the language itself, how much is how it's been used in academic programs, and how much is due to the people who were originally involved in the language, the conferences, etc.
• kstrauser 14y ago
  I just issued a pull request that would add test cases to the Code of Conduct. It's at https://github.com/kstrauser/pycon-code-of-conduct/commit/1448bf5f9a40ef2ab29b2869329a96f4de01c371 https://github.com/kstrauser/pycon-code-of-conduct/commit/14... . The idea is that: 1. It's good to define exactly what we want to happen in various test cases. Either we can get consensus ("yeah, that's how it should turn out!") or decide that there's no clear answer. Both results add valuable information to the process. 2. We have examples to compare the actual Code of Conduct against to decide whether it achieves the results we want. I'm not directly related to PyCon in any way other than as a happy attendee. As of this moment, I have no support (official or otherwise) for this project. I just think it could be a useful tool and an interesting exercise. Please jump in if you agree! PS: The syntax is awful. I'm keenly aware of that, but I'm not aware of other testing frameworks for English documents and I'm making it up as I go along.
• adekok 14y ago
  The comments here are curious. The bulk of them are arguing the finer points of rampant speculation. Why did the guy get fired? What were her motives? Was their conversation intended to be private? This is all beside the point. Engaging in such conversations is feeding a witch-hunt (on either side). The facts as I've seen them are simple. He made a penis joke which could be overheard. She took offense. He admitted it was an offensive penis joke. He got fired. The telling point for me is her other behavior. She made a penis joke on Twitter. Unless she admits that that joke was offensive, she's a hypocrite. I find that more offensive than the original joke. Being offended at behavior you do yourself is at best naive. At worst deliberately hypocritical and amoral.
• tekromancr 14y ago
  Why does everyone care? There has to be some point where people realize how insignificant the issue that they are freaking out over is, on all sides.
• masterponomo 14y ago
  I flirted with Python for a while, but couldn't stop obsessing over the built-in recursion limit. Now, seeing what goes on at PyCon, I'm SO glad I switched to brainfuck. There's not only no brittle speech police there, there's NOBODY there.
• ivanhoe 14y ago
  Everything else on the side, but taking pictures of unknown people and publishing them along with the names and full info constitutes a serious invasion of privacy. Not sure about US laws, but almost everywhere in Europe this is totally illegal to do. Model or owner release is absolutely required to be able to publish any pictures of regular people or private properties. For exactly this kind of reasons.
• KVFinn 14y ago
  Both Adria and the guy who made the joke lose their jobs? What a disaster. NOBODY should have been fired over this an any side. WTF.
• abalone 14y ago
  This doesn't seem very well thought out outside of the present scenario. If someone is raped at a conference and blogs about it, naming their attacker, are they in violation of conference policy for engaging in "public shaming"? In a non-sexual context, if someone is caught trying to hack into attendees' computers (another code of conduct violation), is tweeting a photo of them saying "look out for this guy" a violation of conference policy? Remember this: The best solution to offensive speech is more speech, not less.
• cafard 14y ago
  When the history of our times is written, I trust that someone will note the enormous addition of rules to cover situations that should be managed by common sense and good will, the subsequent discovery that the rules do not prevent all bad behavior, and the addition of still more rules. Does anyone really believe that the Code of Conduct will effect a real change?