3 ms·
You write: > All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. But I think one of the important points here is that women should no
by mcherm 14y ago
You write:
> All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes.
But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you to stop you stop making the jokes while they're in the room?
I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument. In fact, they WERE asked to stop (or rather, not to start), by the organizers of PyCon before the conference ever started. That is exactly what PyCon's non-harassment policy is about.
- tankenmate 14y agoAs stated by others, sex jokes are not necessarily sexist jokes.
- euccastro 14y agoSex jokes are not hate speech.
- doktrin 14y ago> I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument. What was the appropriate response, then? I honestly think assertive and honest feedback is often the most effective way to curb unwanted behavior. > But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. Most of the time they don't. We're talking about exception handling, here. Just because a situation is less than ideal (i.e. two guys making phallic jokes at a conference) does not automatically validate a DEFCON 4 response.
- bird_in_hand 14y agoTweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response. I don't really think that it's that problematic- they were breaking the rules of the conference that they had agreed to, and calling someone out publicly is a very common method of enforcing social norms. It's not necessarily the most nuanced or feel-good method, but it's not like they had an expectation of privacy while in a crowded convention room. The overreaction here came from the guy's company, and we really don't know the whole story there.
- doktrin 14y ago>Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response. Agree to disagree. Short of legal action or physical violence, extra-public shaming (Twitter) is about as escalated a response as I can think of.
- cliffu 14y agoCan't we please advance women's rights without criminalizing sexuality by likening it to a racist hate crime? And also can we stop advocating this notion that women are delicate flowers whose fragile ears need to be protected from any mention of sex whatsoever?
- jordan0day 14y agoHow do you not recognize you're conflating two entirely different things here?
- cfc_uk_ 14y ago2 things: Harassment is normally defined not by the intentions but how the action is perceived. Therefore she does not have to justify what is or what is not offensive... HOWEVER - any sexual harassment policy will also state that you should try to let the person know that the actions are offensive to you, if you do not feel comfortable doing so, you should follow the procedures in place, i.e. she should have just contacted the event organisers and let it end there. What she did was - what others have already said, she tried to envoke the powers of soc med to venture on a personal vendatta to 'punish these guys for everything they've ever done wrong (and any other man for that matter) and it backfired.