7 ms·

Playhaven developer fired for sexual jokes

78 points by tapan_pandita 14y ago

natermer 14y ago
If playhaven can't handle a employee that makes off-colored jokes then being fired from that company is a blessing in disguise. Why would somebody want to work for such fuck-heads?
adnam 14y ago
PyCon must have been pretty boring, to have to create controversies such as this. Unrelated, but I would definitely fork this guys repo: https://github.com/snsn/dongle https://github.com/snsn/dongle
- AdrianRossouw 14y ago
  pycon isn't unique, or special, in this regard. I've lost count how many conferences I attended, or read about, that had some form of sexism scandal. My initial response to pycon-gate 2013 was just 'every.fucking.time!'
- tapan_pandita 14y ago
  Language!
- pc86 14y ago
  It's a good thing you don't have contact info in your profile or you'd probably end up getting fired.
rurounijones 14y ago
Massively discussed not 11 hours ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5410515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5410515
- jrajav 14y ago
  This is a completely different story with new information on the topic.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    It's not and there isn't. The old thread has way more info, because the people involved were discussing things there directly (including the guy who got canned who replied to several comments and questions)
Joe-Z 14y ago
Wow, that's pretty tough isn't it? I mean, imagine going to a conference, joking around with a friend and the next day you get fired for it! I wouldn't even go so far to call this (yet another) discussion about women in tech. I mean there are many topics not gender-related that could potentially offend people. The thing that I don't get is: Why did she decide to take a picture of them an put it on Twitter? If she really didn't want to talk to them in person, which I wouldn't blame her for if she was offended by ther attitude, why didn't she just report them to the staff and get them escorted out? Does anyone know if the people involved here ever talked to each other?
- TeeWEE 14y ago
  According to the post they didn't. She just made a picture and posted it to twitter. If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably pardon themselves! Sorry but they way she acted is not appropriate in my eyes. Just make a picture of somebody and put it online! C'mon that's against normal privacy etiquette.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably apologize! Which they did when taken aside by PyCon staff to discuss the incident: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr...
TeeWEE 14y ago
C'mon! Jokes about sex are just as common between girls, maybe even more so. Sorry but why the hell fire somebody with humor? I actually miss the github message "hardcore forking action" when i fork a repo. That was humor!
brador 14y ago
Is this Victorian England? Dude better cover up his ankles.
- jfmercer 14y ago
  We are policed far, far more often, and more thoroughly, than the Victorians could have dreamed. In that sense, Victorian England was a far freer society than ours.
  - ikt 14y ago
    Is someone who doesn't know what life was like as a Victorian.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    But we have laws that are (on the whole) more liberal than the Victorians.
tirant 14y ago
Really? Why is Adria Richards tweeting about a private conversation between two guys joking about sex? She needs to get out more often.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
scotty79 14y ago
Why people are mad at Adria? She just reported something that disturbed her. I'd be rather angry at PyCon organizers for kicking out people for something that was neither sexual language, nor sexist joke. Unless sexual innuendo jokes count as sexual language? They should really clear that up in their code of conduct. Of course top idiots here is Playhaven who kicked out dev for making sexual innuendo immature joke to his friends bit too loud.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  The issue most people seem to have is that she posted a photo of them publically on twitter before the conference organisers had a chance to sort it out in a less public manor. I guess the real issue at the heart of this is that having a high follower count gives one a pretty big gun in the court of public opinion.
- the_mitsuhiko 14y ago
  What ever happened to talking to people and resolving a conflict without involving the internet? :)
  - scotty79 14y ago
    Twitter seems to be new talking.
- Argorak 14y ago
  She is a person with quite some outreach and publicly posted a picture of the person in question instead of leaving the matter fully up to the organizers. If you invoke a Code of Conduct, you should also leave matters in the organizers hands - they put it up, they enforce it. Especially as the organizers reaction seems appropriate. I think the problem is that most people see this as problematic and up to interpretation and Adria seems portrait it like a clear-cut case and justified in all aspects. No reason to insult or threaten her, though. Anyone doing this really deserves to be fired. :/
- risratorn 14y ago
  The case here is wether or not she should have posted a public twitter message and picture of the two guys offending her (and women in general). Imho she shouldn't have done that, it was wrong and she should apologise for it. The fact that the guy got fired is another mater. Since the conference organisation kicked them out during the conference he would have had to explain his actions to his employer anyway (who probably paid for the conference) and held accountable for it. Wether or not that resulted in him getting fired is up to his employer. But ... Adria's actions made it a public discussion which directly affected Playhaven's reputation and thus made the mater far worse for all parties involved. That's on Adria.
aw3c2 14y ago
There is nothing in this link that was not discussed at HN already.
michaelgrafl 14y ago
I think many people - even smart ones - still don't realize how big the possible consequences are when publicly bullying someone. My thoughts on this: don't do it. You might feel like venting right now, and you might have good reason to do so, but do it in your immediate vicinity, not on the Internet. You might find out later that you overreacted, and you won't be able to take it back. Also, I find it ugly to put someone in the pillory who has a lot less clout than you do, no matter how justified it seems to you. It seems like applying mob law to me, which I have an aversion to.
scrrr 14y ago
Is this about sexism again? The culture has lost when political correctness is taken too far. Perhaps the guy behaved like an a*e for disturbing other people, but this is not how you handle it. You turn around, and tell them to STFU. But perhaps she was offended by the nature of the jokes. Possibly off topic, because I didn't follow the incident at all. But I just thought of Derek Sivers' summary [1] of PG's "Hackers and Painters" (which I haven't read yet) and there he writes: "What exactly is "hate speech?" This sounds like a phrase out of 1984. Labels like that are probably the biggest external clue. If a statement is false, that's the worst thing you can say about it. You don't need to say that it's heretical. And if it isn't false, it shouldn't be suppressed. So when you see statements being attacked as x-ist or y-ic (substitute your current values of x and y), whether in 1630 or 2030, that's a sure sign that something is wrong." [1] http://sivers.org/book/HackersPainters http://sivers.org/book/HackersPainters For what it's worth, he shouldn't be too upset for not working there anymore.
- gnur 14y ago
  I agree, it is in peoples nature to make fun of those who are different, be it by gender, etnicity, height, intelligence or whatever. But in most cases, this is harmless fun between two people that don't share that trait. Only when you are actively, openly insulting said people and treating them different then anyone else you are doing something very wrong. Some racist jokes are just really funny, but that doesn't mean I'm racist. Also, I feel like this is more of an issue in the US then in Europe. I really couldn't imagine someone being fire for a picture posted on twitter by someone else accusing you of something nasty in The Netherlands.
  - tomp 14y ago
    It is also in people's nature to make fun about those that are similar, the same, or even about themselves. I make a lot of jokes. About women, blacks, jews, ... also, about men, whites, programmers. I don't discriminate; I make fun of everything and everyone!
    - illuminate 14y ago
jfmercer 14y ago
The issue here is not sexism. It is surveillance. In this case, sexism is a red herring.
jmomo 14y ago
This is a case of everyone behaving badly and it turning into an ulgy fight. Who's side do you choose? None of the above. Watch, learn, but stay the hell out of it.
kushti 14y ago
Adria Richards published private conversation she eavesdropped on and also the picture without asking. She must be fired at least for that
jlebrech 14y ago
I believe if you're a human being of any gender, if you cannot handle innuendo (whether intended or unintended) then you shouldn't be in a job. And if you're not a party in that conversation you have no right to complain to other non-parties. just ask the people you are uncomfortable with directly if you must. learn humour.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
nicholassmith 14y ago
There's a couple of things that really suck about this. One, the misogynistic reaction from the masked avengers of the internet is shameful, and has actually made the situation much worse now. The second being, how did we end up here at all? I get that someone might feel uncomfortable about dick jokes, but given dick and fart jokes have been staples of low brow humour for a pretty long time it's pretty petty to name and shame over it. We all should be concerned about sexism in the industry, in this case it seems like it's been taken too far and Playhaven should be ashamed to have not had some faith in their member of staff. The last time a discussion on sexism came out I made a comment about how we need to have responsible disclosure about these issues, for this exact reason. It's turned into a witchhunt, and it's turned nasty and vicious.
davidland 14y ago
With which right did she anyway take picture of the guys and posted them on the internet without permit? Hypothetically she could just have built up the entire story. What scares me the most is how having a wide (social) audience can give you a position of power: the followers become your minions and you can easily start your personal battles. Managers at Playheaven rushed too much, IMO.
js-coder 14y ago
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with that woman? She could've turned around and told them to stop making these kind of jokes. That she made a similar joke before is even weirder.
scotty79 14y ago
I was searching for what sexual language is. I found this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-sexual-language-is-commonplace-in-care-homes-panel-rules.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-... Not sure what to think about this so I'll just leave it here.
downandout 14y ago
This woman saw an opportunity to pick up some Twitter followers, knowing that at least one or two people would be upset by her embellished explanation of what happened. In the process she took away someone's livelihood, which is despicable in my opinion. She would have simply asked them to be quiet if she were truly offended. Instead she smiled, photographed them, and let them continue their private conversation. It's pretty clear that she wanted publicity - nothing more. #FameWhore
- knowtheory 14y ago
  You are speculating about someone else's motives and conduct. Unless you have evidence to back up the assertions you are making, you are behaving in exactly the same manner for which you are criticizing others. Also, private conversations held in public are no longer private.
  - downandout 14y ago
    Her actions reveal her motives. When someone offends you, are you more likely to ask them to be quiet, or take to your blog to write a lengthy post about it, trash them on Twitter, and get them fired? I'd hate to see what she's done to her ex boyfriends or girlfriends if this is truly just her standard reaction to being offended. By the way, she has posted a message on that blog post thanking HN users for stopping by and taking interest in her. That pretty clearly reinforces the idea that she is quite happy and cognizant of the fact that she managed to turn this into something far more than it was.
    - knowtheory 14y ago
      Let's start with a disclaimer. I wasn't at PyCon, i don't know what actually happened and i think this entire affair is a disaster for everyone involved. I don't know who is right, but i do know there are a whole lot of people being assholes. Along those lines, why do you feel comfortable to sit in judgement of this woman, because she didn't do what you would have done? Try looking at this from another perspective. If the issue that she is concerned about is not this particular incidence of sexism that happens to be happening near her (if it did), but instead that the mindset of those in her community, telling these particular guys to STFU is not going to address the problem. If they're going to blow her off and just go somewhere else and continue being jackasses (again, if they actually were being jackasses), then what could she hope to achieve by confronting them directly? If on the other hand, her goal is to call out a particular type of conduct as unacceptable, then her behavior seems sensible. She's not going to change these dudes' minds, but she might reach others. So, post to blog, post to twitter. I wish everyone would stop jumping immediately to evil plots, and accusing others of intentionally gaining at the expense of someone else.
Tichy 14y ago
All things being equal, working together with women puts you at risk (they might get accidentally offended, go ballistic and ruin your life), working with men much less so (harrassment claims much less likely). Conclusion: it is prerferrable to not work with women. Just saying how it is, rationally. To be honest, it sometimes felt weird to work at places with 100% guys as developers. But at the end of the day, I just want to get my job done then get home to wife+ kids. Exactly why should I care about getting more women into IT? Honest question - I see the appeal of lower wages for employers (more devs- they get cheaper). That would lower my wages, too. As for nicer atmosphere at work - flirting and being nice is too dangerous, so having women around would actually make things worse. Note: I don't really have a problem with women in IT, just wondering about the future.
- ciupicri 14y ago
  I know someone who thought exactly like you. He and the rest of his colleagues evaluated a woman and they wondered if she could really integrate into the group (because of dirty jokes), so in the end they decided not to hire her.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    I don't even like dirty jokes. But to be honest, it seems fair to me that people prefer to hire people who share their sense of humor.
    - ciupicri 14y ago
      Indeed. It could have been another trait as well like the work philosophy which could be conservative or fast paced (and more prone to errors) for example. There's also the saying when in Rome do as the Romans do.
- svlasits 14y ago
  In the future engineering will be just like most other workplaces: men and women working together mostly respectfully without incident. This will happen whether you care about it or not. Your side (the side that concludes that "it is prerferrable to not work with women") will lose. Your "logic" and your "rationality" will surrender to justice, fair play and equality. Now, please stop fighting for your side so men who recognize the benefits of having women colleagues can enjoy those benefits sooner.
TheZenPsycho 14y ago
Woman complains of feeling uncomfortable in a tech conference due to juvenile jokes. Hacker News commenters ranging from indifferent to hostile to that notion. Number of people surprised by this outcome: miniscule.
zalew 14y ago
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash <grabs popcorn>
lionhearted 14y ago
So, making a joke about a "dongle" with your friend is a firable offense, but taking a photo of someone without their permission and publicly calling them an "ass clown" is okay? Because she was offended at crudeness directed at no one and merely overheard, that means crude insults directed at people are appropriate? And in a way that's meant to harm them publicly? What a damn strange time we live in.
- theorique 14y ago
  So, making a joke about a "dongle" with your friend is a firable offense, but taking a photo of someone without their permission and publicly calling them an "ass clown" is okay? It's not about what was done, it's about who did it. Because the latter offense was done by a member of an oppressed class, it's automatically OK. Because the former offense was done by a member of the oppressor class, it's punishable. (Some people actually think this way.)
  - andybak 14y ago
    And there is some validity to that view. I'm not happy with the way this particular incident has panned out but arguing we should just ignore power relationships when analysing a situation is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    - theorique 14y ago
      I think the power asymmetry was rather limited in this case. All the people involved in the incident were rather privileged - attendees of a conference that costs hundreds of dollars to attend (not including travel and accommodation).
- jcc80 14y ago
  For those keeping score, this is also OK: @adriarichards Black people CANNOT be racist against White people. Racism is a position of the oppressor who has the power - http://i.imgur.com/ou8JZVu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ou8JZVu.jpg
prajjwal 14y ago
"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
- rdavl 14y ago
  Hehe, yeah, he should be fired for saying "Fk you nvidia" on school premises.
- illuminate 14y ago
  Linus is aggressive WRT policy and technology, he's not making it okay for you to tell racist jokes and remain employed.
p6v53as 14y ago
We, male developers, actually benefit from her actions. One guy may have lost his job, not a big deal, gonna get another, after all this publicity he got quite famous, but the main thing is that less woman will want to take the job of software development, less employers will want to hire woman because of the possible problems like this and so less concurrency for us and bigger salary.
- Tichy 14y ago
  Until they introduce mandatory hiring quotas
Steph0r 14y ago
Well if i was the little girl on the photo in the slides.. I guess I would rather work in an industry with occasional sexual jokes then in an industry where the reaction to hearing something you don't want to hear, even though it is not directed at you, is snapping a picture of someone without their permission, posting it online without their permission and proceeding to insult them, instead of just asking them to stop or minding your own business..
girvo 14y ago
This entire situation makes me upset, and frankly, makes me feel I should watch my toungue when joking with mates and someone could overheard me. That doesn't advance the fight against sexism. In fact, it makes it more adversarial. Besides, offended != sexism. I hope she's happy.
- scotty79 14y ago
  Why would you even make jokes except anonymously over the internet? Let's keep Real professional!
- illuminate 14y ago
  "This entire situation makes me upset, and frankly, makes me feel I should watch my toungue when joking with mates and someone could overheard me" So it's not okay for you to feel uncomfortable, only for the woman to.
jahewson 14y ago
Oh come on, Amy Poehler made a dongle joke in Best Buy's Super Bowl ad!
- ciupicri 14y ago
  Link to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fXa9hTowY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fXa9hTowY
auggierose 14y ago
This is not about men or women. Some people are just twats. Without exactly knowing the context in which this happened we don't know who the twat was in this case. I probably wouldn't want to work with either of them.
- yarrel 14y ago
  Gendered slur. Where can I report you for firing?
  - jack9 14y ago
    There's no expectation of conduct here. Way to miss the point.
zemelb 14y ago
Take a look at the world and all the shitty stuff happening every single day again. Then, think about a joke referencing a penis. Do you really feel the need to be offended? Do you really think it is worth to tell the world someone touched a broken braincell in your head because of a penis joke? Clearly, you have your priorities wrong miss Richards. Same goes for the company firing the guy, why would you care about a crazy woman with penis issues?
- MoreMoschops 14y ago
  So how do you justify where you draw your own line? Is it okay for you to murder someone because every day somewhere there is a massacre? No? Well then, is it okay for you to shoplift because someone else, somewhere, is stealing much more than you? Is it okay for you to push someone over because every day, somewhere, someone gets assaulted? The list goes on and on. If you draw the line anywhere then you've applied the exact same principle you just espoused against; you just choose to draw the line in a slightly different place.
  - zemelb 14y ago
    I think you miss my point. Where I come from, nobody - and that can be taken very literally - will be offended by a joke about penises between to friends. Why not? Because it is not something to be offended about. There is a lot of crap happening in the world today and jokes about penises is not one of them. That's all there is to it. If you do make this a big priority in your live, and even feel offended by it, your brain is kind of broken. Like when you believe in God and thus think it's OK to murder others that don't follow your beliefs. That's a broken brain symptom. So it's not so much about drawing a line as there should be no need to draw it. It's a bit - in a far fetched way - like the song Tim Minchin sang about the pope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sph8Qu8wLAk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sph8Qu8wLAk
    - MoreMoschops 14y ago
      "Thats all there is to it." An unbending, absolute rigid belief? Sounds like a religous style "broken brain".
aviraldg 14y ago
I don't get the point. 1. A said something to B (doesn't matter what he said) 2. C overheard and found it offensive. 3. Honestly, why should A & B care? (that wasn't intended for C!) I shudder to think of a society where I must consider every word I say, just to avoid offending someone. Doing this will lead us to the kind of world described in Fahrenheit 451, where nobody can really write about anything or anyone because their opinions might offend someone. Also, I guess someone doesn't understand the difference between `sexual` and `sexist`.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > 3. Honestly, why should A & B care? (that wasn't intended for C!) it was a public event with a code of conduct in a crowded room with children in attendance. So C was free to report it to the conf. Sadly that's not what C did (when the conf staff got aware of it, they took everybody, discussed it and as far as I understood basically told A and B to be a bit more careful, then let everybody go and have a good time).
- sp332 14y ago
  I can understand her reaction at the conference. PyCon has a specific policy about this. Since they were in earshot of at least a dozen people around them, it was not a "private" conversation. The PyCon workers took her complaint seriously and didn't seem to have any problem helping her out. The only thing she was out of line about was shaming the guys publicly on twitter. Edit: just found this on the other thread, where someone claiming to be the guy who got fired makes pretty much the same point. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > The PyCon workers took her complaint seriously and didn't seem to have any problem helping her out. Indeed, leading to this: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr... > Both parties were met with, in private. The comments that were made were in poor taste, and individuals involved agreed, apologized and no further actions were taken by the staff of PyCon 2013. No individuals were removed from the conference, no sanctions were levied.
mkr-hn 14y ago
Another thread of soapboxing. It's rare that I come this close to using the flag button, but the story does have some details I missed, so it has some value.
smewpy 14y ago
Shame that this is the biggest news to come out of PyCon.
aMoniker 14y ago
Now children.
mseebach 14y ago
> "but when she saw a picture of a little girl onstage, she felt she needed to make a stand for her" This is outrageously pretentious.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
norswap 14y ago
Far from being an intelligent move, it's bad PR.
svlasits 14y ago
Stunning that the outrage over this over-reactive firing is made manifest by rage--expressed as professional disrespect, name-calling, and sexually violent attacks--at the woman who called him out, with nary a peep about his over-reactive employer. <---- This is evidence of deep and corrosive sexism.
coldtea 14y ago
Just had a nightmarish vision: people behaving like her AND Google Glasses. No privacy for anyone -- and prudish allegations to top it.

78 points by tapan_pandita 14y ago

If playhaven can't handle a employee that makes off-colored jokes then being fired from that company is a blessing in disguise. Why would somebody want to work for such fuck-heads?

adnam 14y ago

PyCon must have been pretty boring, to have to create controversies such as this. Unrelated, but I would definitely fork this guys repo: https://github.com/snsn/dongle https://github.com/snsn/dongle

AdrianRossouw 14y ago
pycon isn't unique, or special, in this regard. I've lost count how many conferences I attended, or read about, that had some form of sexism scandal. My initial response to pycon-gate 2013 was just 'every.fucking.time!'
tapan_pandita 14y ago
Language!
pc86 14y ago
It's a good thing you don't have contact info in your profile or you'd probably end up getting fired.

rurounijones 14y ago

Massively discussed not 11 hours ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5410515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5410515

jrajav 14y ago
This is a completely different story with new information on the topic.
- masklinn 14y ago
  It's not and there isn't. The old thread has way more info, because the people involved were discussing things there directly (including the guy who got canned who replied to several comments and questions)

Joe-Z 14y ago

Wow, that's pretty tough isn't it? I mean, imagine going to a conference, joking around with a friend and the next day you get fired for it! I wouldn't even go so far to call this (yet another) discussion about women in tech. I mean there are many topics not gender-related that could potentially offend people. The thing that I don't get is: Why did she decide to take a picture of them an put it on Twitter? If she really didn't want to talk to them in person, which I wouldn't blame her for if she was offended by ther attitude, why didn't she just report them to the staff and get them escorted out? Does anyone know if the people involved here ever talked to each other?

TeeWEE 14y ago
According to the post they didn't. She just made a picture and posted it to twitter. If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably pardon themselves! Sorry but they way she acted is not appropriate in my eyes. Just make a picture of somebody and put it online! C'mon that's against normal privacy etiquette.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably apologize! Which they did when taken aside by PyCon staff to discuss the incident: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr...

TeeWEE 14y ago

C'mon! Jokes about sex are just as common between girls, maybe even more so. Sorry but why the hell fire somebody with humor? I actually miss the github message "hardcore forking action" when i fork a repo. That was humor!

brador 14y ago

Is this Victorian England? Dude better cover up his ankles.

jfmercer 14y ago
We are policed far, far more often, and more thoroughly, than the Victorians could have dreamed. In that sense, Victorian England was a far freer society than ours.
- ikt 14y ago
  Is someone who doesn't know what life was like as a Victorian.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  But we have laws that are (on the whole) more liberal than the Victorians.

tirant 14y ago

Really? Why is Adria Richards tweeting about a private conversation between two guys joking about sex? She needs to get out more often.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

scotty79 14y ago

Why people are mad at Adria? She just reported something that disturbed her. I'd be rather angry at PyCon organizers for kicking out people for something that was neither sexual language, nor sexist joke. Unless sexual innuendo jokes count as sexual language? They should really clear that up in their code of conduct. Of course top idiots here is Playhaven who kicked out dev for making sexual innuendo immature joke to his friends bit too loud.

jiggy2011 14y ago
The issue most people seem to have is that she posted a photo of them publically on twitter before the conference organisers had a chance to sort it out in a less public manor. I guess the real issue at the heart of this is that having a high follower count gives one a pretty big gun in the court of public opinion.
the_mitsuhiko 14y ago
What ever happened to talking to people and resolving a conflict without involving the internet? :)
- scotty79 14y ago
  Twitter seems to be new talking.
Argorak 14y ago
She is a person with quite some outreach and publicly posted a picture of the person in question instead of leaving the matter fully up to the organizers. If you invoke a Code of Conduct, you should also leave matters in the organizers hands - they put it up, they enforce it. Especially as the organizers reaction seems appropriate. I think the problem is that most people see this as problematic and up to interpretation and Adria seems portrait it like a clear-cut case and justified in all aspects. No reason to insult or threaten her, though. Anyone doing this really deserves to be fired. :/
risratorn 14y ago
The case here is wether or not she should have posted a public twitter message and picture of the two guys offending her (and women in general). Imho she shouldn't have done that, it was wrong and she should apologise for it. The fact that the guy got fired is another mater. Since the conference organisation kicked them out during the conference he would have had to explain his actions to his employer anyway (who probably paid for the conference) and held accountable for it. Wether or not that resulted in him getting fired is up to his employer. But ... Adria's actions made it a public discussion which directly affected Playhaven's reputation and thus made the mater far worse for all parties involved. That's on Adria.

aw3c2 14y ago

There is nothing in this link that was not discussed at HN already.

michaelgrafl 14y ago

I think many people - even smart ones - still don't realize how big the possible consequences are when publicly bullying someone. My thoughts on this: don't do it. You might feel like venting right now, and you might have good reason to do so, but do it in your immediate vicinity, not on the Internet. You might find out later that you overreacted, and you won't be able to take it back. Also, I find it ugly to put someone in the pillory who has a lot less clout than you do, no matter how justified it seems to you. It seems like applying mob law to me, which I have an aversion to.

scrrr 14y ago

Is this about sexism again? The culture has lost when political correctness is taken too far. Perhaps the guy behaved like an a*e for disturbing other people, but this is not how you handle it. You turn around, and tell them to STFU. But perhaps she was offended by the nature of the jokes. Possibly off topic, because I didn't follow the incident at all. But I just thought of Derek Sivers' summary [1] of PG's "Hackers and Painters" (which I haven't read yet) and there he writes: "What exactly is "hate speech?" This sounds like a phrase out of 1984. Labels like that are probably the biggest external clue. If a statement is false, that's the worst thing you can say about it. You don't need to say that it's heretical. And if it isn't false, it shouldn't be suppressed. So when you see statements being attacked as x-ist or y-ic (substitute your current values of x and y), whether in 1630 or 2030, that's a sure sign that something is wrong." [1] http://sivers.org/book/HackersPainters http://sivers.org/book/HackersPainters For what it's worth, he shouldn't be too upset for not working there anymore.

gnur 14y ago
I agree, it is in peoples nature to make fun of those who are different, be it by gender, etnicity, height, intelligence or whatever. But in most cases, this is harmless fun between two people that don't share that trait. Only when you are actively, openly insulting said people and treating them different then anyone else you are doing something very wrong. Some racist jokes are just really funny, but that doesn't mean I'm racist. Also, I feel like this is more of an issue in the US then in Europe. I really couldn't imagine someone being fire for a picture posted on twitter by someone else accusing you of something nasty in The Netherlands.
- tomp 14y ago
  It is also in people's nature to make fun about those that are similar, the same, or even about themselves. I make a lot of jokes. About women, blacks, jews, ... also, about men, whites, programmers. I don't discriminate; I make fun of everything and everyone!
  - illuminate 14y ago

jfmercer 14y ago

The issue here is not sexism. It is surveillance. In this case, sexism is a red herring.

jmomo 14y ago

This is a case of everyone behaving badly and it turning into an ulgy fight. Who's side do you choose? None of the above. Watch, learn, but stay the hell out of it.

kushti 14y ago

Adria Richards published private conversation she eavesdropped on and also the picture without asking. She must be fired at least for that

jlebrech 14y ago

I believe if you're a human being of any gender, if you cannot handle innuendo (whether intended or unintended) then you shouldn't be in a job. And if you're not a party in that conversation you have no right to complain to other non-parties. just ask the people you are uncomfortable with directly if you must. learn humour.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

nicholassmith 14y ago

There's a couple of things that really suck about this. One, the misogynistic reaction from the masked avengers of the internet is shameful, and has actually made the situation much worse now. The second being, how did we end up here at all? I get that someone might feel uncomfortable about dick jokes, but given dick and fart jokes have been staples of low brow humour for a pretty long time it's pretty petty to name and shame over it. We all should be concerned about sexism in the industry, in this case it seems like it's been taken too far and Playhaven should be ashamed to have not had some faith in their member of staff. The last time a discussion on sexism came out I made a comment about how we need to have responsible disclosure about these issues, for this exact reason. It's turned into a witchhunt, and it's turned nasty and vicious.

davidland 14y ago

With which right did she anyway take picture of the guys and posted them on the internet without permit? Hypothetically she could just have built up the entire story. What scares me the most is how having a wide (social) audience can give you a position of power: the followers become your minions and you can easily start your personal battles. Managers at Playheaven rushed too much, IMO.

js-coder 14y ago

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with that woman? She could've turned around and told them to stop making these kind of jokes. That she made a similar joke before is even weirder.

scotty79 14y ago

I was searching for what sexual language is. I found this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-sexual-language-is-commonplace-in-care-homes-panel-rules.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-... Not sure what to think about this so I'll just leave it here.

downandout 14y ago

This woman saw an opportunity to pick up some Twitter followers, knowing that at least one or two people would be upset by her embellished explanation of what happened. In the process she took away someone's livelihood, which is despicable in my opinion. She would have simply asked them to be quiet if she were truly offended. Instead she smiled, photographed them, and let them continue their private conversation. It's pretty clear that she wanted publicity - nothing more. #FameWhore

knowtheory 14y ago
You are speculating about someone else's motives and conduct. Unless you have evidence to back up the assertions you are making, you are behaving in exactly the same manner for which you are criticizing others. Also, private conversations held in public are no longer private.
- downandout 14y ago
  Her actions reveal her motives. When someone offends you, are you more likely to ask them to be quiet, or take to your blog to write a lengthy post about it, trash them on Twitter, and get them fired? I'd hate to see what she's done to her ex boyfriends or girlfriends if this is truly just her standard reaction to being offended. By the way, she has posted a message on that blog post thanking HN users for stopping by and taking interest in her. That pretty clearly reinforces the idea that she is quite happy and cognizant of the fact that she managed to turn this into something far more than it was.
  - knowtheory 14y ago
    Let's start with a disclaimer. I wasn't at PyCon, i don't know what actually happened and i think this entire affair is a disaster for everyone involved. I don't know who is right, but i do know there are a whole lot of people being assholes. Along those lines, why do you feel comfortable to sit in judgement of this woman, because she didn't do what you would have done? Try looking at this from another perspective. If the issue that she is concerned about is not this particular incidence of sexism that happens to be happening near her (if it did), but instead that the mindset of those in her community, telling these particular guys to STFU is not going to address the problem. If they're going to blow her off and just go somewhere else and continue being jackasses (again, if they actually were being jackasses), then what could she hope to achieve by confronting them directly? If on the other hand, her goal is to call out a particular type of conduct as unacceptable, then her behavior seems sensible. She's not going to change these dudes' minds, but she might reach others. So, post to blog, post to twitter. I wish everyone would stop jumping immediately to evil plots, and accusing others of intentionally gaining at the expense of someone else.

Tichy 14y ago

All things being equal, working together with women puts you at risk (they might get accidentally offended, go ballistic and ruin your life), working with men much less so (harrassment claims much less likely). Conclusion: it is prerferrable to not work with women. Just saying how it is, rationally. To be honest, it sometimes felt weird to work at places with 100% guys as developers. But at the end of the day, I just want to get my job done then get home to wife+ kids. Exactly why should I care about getting more women into IT? Honest question - I see the appeal of lower wages for employers (more devs- they get cheaper). That would lower my wages, too. As for nicer atmosphere at work - flirting and being nice is too dangerous, so having women around would actually make things worse. Note: I don't really have a problem with women in IT, just wondering about the future.

ciupicri 14y ago
I know someone who thought exactly like you. He and the rest of his colleagues evaluated a woman and they wondered if she could really integrate into the group (because of dirty jokes), so in the end they decided not to hire her.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I don't even like dirty jokes. But to be honest, it seems fair to me that people prefer to hire people who share their sense of humor.
  - ciupicri 14y ago
    Indeed. It could have been another trait as well like the work philosophy which could be conservative or fast paced (and more prone to errors) for example. There's also the saying when in Rome do as the Romans do.
svlasits 14y ago
In the future engineering will be just like most other workplaces: men and women working together mostly respectfully without incident. This will happen whether you care about it or not. Your side (the side that concludes that "it is prerferrable to not work with women") will lose. Your "logic" and your "rationality" will surrender to justice, fair play and equality. Now, please stop fighting for your side so men who recognize the benefits of having women colleagues can enjoy those benefits sooner.

TheZenPsycho 14y ago

Woman complains of feeling uncomfortable in a tech conference due to juvenile jokes. Hacker News commenters ranging from indifferent to hostile to that notion. Number of people surprised by this outcome: miniscule.

zalew 14y ago

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash <grabs popcorn>

lionhearted 14y ago

So, making a joke about a "dongle" with your friend is a firable offense, but taking a photo of someone without their permission and publicly calling them an "ass clown" is okay? Because she was offended at crudeness directed at no one and merely overheard, that means crude insults directed at people are appropriate? And in a way that's meant to harm them publicly? What a damn strange time we live in.

theorique 14y ago
So, making a joke about a "dongle" with your friend is a firable offense, but taking a photo of someone without their permission and publicly calling them an "ass clown" is okay? It's not about what was done, it's about who did it. Because the latter offense was done by a member of an oppressed class, it's automatically OK. Because the former offense was done by a member of the oppressor class, it's punishable. (Some people actually think this way.)
- andybak 14y ago
  And there is some validity to that view. I'm not happy with the way this particular incident has panned out but arguing we should just ignore power relationships when analysing a situation is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
  - theorique 14y ago
    I think the power asymmetry was rather limited in this case. All the people involved in the incident were rather privileged - attendees of a conference that costs hundreds of dollars to attend (not including travel and accommodation).
jcc80 14y ago
For those keeping score, this is also OK: @adriarichards Black people CANNOT be racist against White people. Racism is a position of the oppressor who has the power - http://i.imgur.com/ou8JZVu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ou8JZVu.jpg

prajjwal 14y ago

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds

rdavl 14y ago
Hehe, yeah, he should be fired for saying "Fk you nvidia" on school premises.
illuminate 14y ago
Linus is aggressive WRT policy and technology, he's not making it okay for you to tell racist jokes and remain employed.

p6v53as 14y ago

We, male developers, actually benefit from her actions. One guy may have lost his job, not a big deal, gonna get another, after all this publicity he got quite famous, but the main thing is that less woman will want to take the job of software development, less employers will want to hire woman because of the possible problems like this and so less concurrency for us and bigger salary.

Tichy 14y ago
Until they introduce mandatory hiring quotas

Steph0r 14y ago

Well if i was the little girl on the photo in the slides.. I guess I would rather work in an industry with occasional sexual jokes then in an industry where the reaction to hearing something you don't want to hear, even though it is not directed at you, is snapping a picture of someone without their permission, posting it online without their permission and proceeding to insult them, instead of just asking them to stop or minding your own business..

girvo 14y ago

This entire situation makes me upset, and frankly, makes me feel I should watch my toungue when joking with mates and someone could overheard me. That doesn't advance the fight against sexism. In fact, it makes it more adversarial. Besides, offended != sexism. I hope she's happy.

scotty79 14y ago
Why would you even make jokes except anonymously over the internet? Let's keep Real professional!
illuminate 14y ago
"This entire situation makes me upset, and frankly, makes me feel I should watch my toungue when joking with mates and someone could overheard me" So it's not okay for you to feel uncomfortable, only for the woman to.

jahewson 14y ago

Oh come on, Amy Poehler made a dongle joke in Best Buy's Super Bowl ad!

ciupicri 14y ago
Link to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fXa9hTowY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fXa9hTowY

auggierose 14y ago

This is not about men or women. Some people are just twats. Without exactly knowing the context in which this happened we don't know who the twat was in this case. I probably wouldn't want to work with either of them.

yarrel 14y ago
Gendered slur. Where can I report you for firing?
- jack9 14y ago
  There's no expectation of conduct here. Way to miss the point.

zemelb 14y ago

Take a look at the world and all the shitty stuff happening every single day again. Then, think about a joke referencing a penis. Do you really feel the need to be offended? Do you really think it is worth to tell the world someone touched a broken braincell in your head because of a penis joke? Clearly, you have your priorities wrong miss Richards. Same goes for the company firing the guy, why would you care about a crazy woman with penis issues?

MoreMoschops 14y ago
So how do you justify where you draw your own line? Is it okay for you to murder someone because every day somewhere there is a massacre? No? Well then, is it okay for you to shoplift because someone else, somewhere, is stealing much more than you? Is it okay for you to push someone over because every day, somewhere, someone gets assaulted? The list goes on and on. If you draw the line anywhere then you've applied the exact same principle you just espoused against; you just choose to draw the line in a slightly different place.
- zemelb 14y ago
  I think you miss my point. Where I come from, nobody - and that can be taken very literally - will be offended by a joke about penises between to friends. Why not? Because it is not something to be offended about. There is a lot of crap happening in the world today and jokes about penises is not one of them. That's all there is to it. If you do make this a big priority in your live, and even feel offended by it, your brain is kind of broken. Like when you believe in God and thus think it's OK to murder others that don't follow your beliefs. That's a broken brain symptom. So it's not so much about drawing a line as there should be no need to draw it. It's a bit - in a far fetched way - like the song Tim Minchin sang about the pope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sph8Qu8wLAk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sph8Qu8wLAk
  - MoreMoschops 14y ago
    "Thats all there is to it." An unbending, absolute rigid belief? Sounds like a religous style "broken brain".

aviraldg 14y ago

I don't get the point. 1. A said something to B (doesn't matter what he said) 2. C overheard and found it offensive. 3. Honestly, why should A & B care? (that wasn't intended for C!) I shudder to think of a society where I must consider every word I say, just to avoid offending someone. Doing this will lead us to the kind of world described in Fahrenheit 451, where nobody can really write about anything or anyone because their opinions might offend someone. Also, I guess someone doesn't understand the difference between `sexual` and `sexist`.

masklinn 14y ago
> 3. Honestly, why should A & B care? (that wasn't intended for C!) it was a public event with a code of conduct in a crowded room with children in attendance. So C was free to report it to the conf. Sadly that's not what C did (when the conf staff got aware of it, they took everybody, discussed it and as far as I understood basically told A and B to be a bit more careful, then let everybody go and have a good time).
sp332 14y ago
I can understand her reaction at the conference. PyCon has a specific policy about this. Since they were in earshot of at least a dozen people around them, it was not a "private" conversation. The PyCon workers took her complaint seriously and didn't seem to have any problem helping her out. The only thing she was out of line about was shaming the guys publicly on twitter. Edit: just found this on the other thread, where someone claiming to be the guy who got fired makes pretty much the same point. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681
- masklinn 14y ago
  > The PyCon workers took her complaint seriously and didn't seem to have any problem helping her out. Indeed, leading to this: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr... > Both parties were met with, in private. The comments that were made were in poor taste, and individuals involved agreed, apologized and no further actions were taken by the staff of PyCon 2013. No individuals were removed from the conference, no sanctions were levied.

mkr-hn 14y ago

Another thread of soapboxing. It's rare that I come this close to using the flag button, but the story does have some details I missed, so it has some value.

smewpy 14y ago

Shame that this is the biggest news to come out of PyCon.

aMoniker 14y ago

Now children.

mseebach 14y ago

> "but when she saw a picture of a little girl onstage, she felt she needed to make a stand for her" This is outrageously pretentious.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

norswap 14y ago

Far from being an intelligent move, it's bad PR.

svlasits 14y ago

Stunning that the outrage over this over-reactive firing is made manifest by rage--expressed as professional disrespect, name-calling, and sexually violent attacks--at the woman who called him out, with nary a peep about his over-reactive employer. <---- This is evidence of deep and corrosive sexism.

coldtea 14y ago

Just had a nightmarish vision: people behaving like her AND Google Glasses. No privacy for anyone -- and prudish allegations to top it.