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> You should talk to more women about this. Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rh

by ErrantX 14y ago

> You should talk to more women about this. Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rhetoric. You seem a decent enough guy, if a little clueless, so I'll give you more advice if I may. Making lewd comments certainly might make others feel uncomfortable (male or female), but the fear factor comes from attitude and presence, not the words. For example; had these two guys been leering at Adria. And staring at her, deliberately raising their voices to project their jokes to her hearing.. that is the sort of behaviour that starts to become frightening. No one has suggested this is the case. They made a joke between themselves, that made Adria uncomfortable. That is a far cry from her fearing for her physical safety.

RougeFemme 14y ago
For some people, the fear factor factor comes from words alone. . .attitude and presence are not required. I'm a woman. Am I like that (feeling fearful from words alone)? No. Do I wish other people weren't like that? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that for some people it is just the words - right or wrong. And no, I wouldn't have reacted as she did - I would have ignored it or spoken directly to them.
wpietri 14y ago
Hi, Tom. I have talked to actual women who tell me this. Why do you, as a guy, feel qualified to invalidate their experiences? I don't think Adira felt immediate fear for her physical safety, no. But I do think fear of sexual harassment and sexual violence are an important reason why it is very important that "harmless" sexualization of professional situations isn't harmless at all.
- h2s 14y ago
  Just FYI: There are those of us reading this who understand your comments and agree wholeheartedly. The difficulty I think you're facing here in getting this point across is that people are angry right now. Angry mob mode is very much enabled, and it's a mode which reduces people's ability to empathise and change their minds. Kudos for trying though.
  - afqwerqeq 14y ago
    Not everyone who disagrees with you is angry and irrational. I'm very calm, but I think you're wrong. Just because someone got offended, that doesn't make it everyone else's problem. Publishing photos of people along with transcripts of their private conversation is highly intrusive, and should only be done in extreme circumstances. A dick joke does not qualify.
    - h2s 14y ago
      I wasn't talking about what Adria did. I agree with the consensus that she fucked up. I was talking about the fact that it's possible to be blinded by privilege and accidentally make remarks that really undermine the sense of belonging and safety of somebody with less privilege than you.
- afqwerqeq 14y ago
  While what you say is true, there's no reason for everyone to have to bear the burden of a few people's irrational fears. I don't know were the dividing line should be, but overheard undirected conversation doesn't seem like a reasonable threat to me. Adira was perfectly within her rights to complain to the conference organisers about rule breaking behaviour that was annoying her. The twitter shaming and blog post about harassment was a bit overboard though.
- ErrantX 14y ago
  Oh piffle, the whole "why do you, as a guy" rhetoric is even worse. Although, for what it is worth, I have volunteered in a women's shelter for many years, so have a wealth of empirical information to draw on. What you're doing, though, is taking one issue and turning into a much more "serious" one (I use that term loosely, neither sexual discomfort nor sexual violence should be taken lightly). Yes, sexualisation of professional situations is a problem (at least, it quite often is). As I noted, this applies to both male and female top-heavy environments. But the issue isn't really about fear of sexual violence, that simply does not match up with reality. I agree, some women are sensitive to these sorts of conversations. And they can be triggers for them which lead to fear. But more important is the much larger majority of women for whom this conversations "merely" (again, using the term loosely) degrades them as an individual. Hence me objecting to your casting of this issue as a major problem r.e. threat of violence. 99.9999% of the people making these comments are not about to commit sexual violence, and the vast majority of women (and, yes, men) being subjected to it are not in fear for themselves. By casting it as you have, you've undermined the issue. And you're initial phrasing itself sounded patronising and degrading (although obviously not your intention). EDIT: p.s. it's Adria not Adira.

by ErrantX 14y ago

RougeFemme 14y ago

For some people, the fear factor factor comes from words alone. . .attitude and presence are not required. I'm a woman. Am I like that (feeling fearful from words alone)? No. Do I wish other people weren't like that? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that for some people it is just the words - right or wrong. And no, I wouldn't have reacted as she did - I would have ignored it or spoken directly to them.

wpietri 14y ago

Hi, Tom. I have talked to actual women who tell me this. Why do you, as a guy, feel qualified to invalidate their experiences? I don't think Adira felt immediate fear for her physical safety, no. But I do think fear of sexual harassment and sexual violence are an important reason why it is very important that "harmless" sexualization of professional situations isn't harmless at all.

h2s 14y ago
Just FYI: There are those of us reading this who understand your comments and agree wholeheartedly. The difficulty I think you're facing here in getting this point across is that people are angry right now. Angry mob mode is very much enabled, and it's a mode which reduces people's ability to empathise and change their minds. Kudos for trying though.
- afqwerqeq 14y ago
  Not everyone who disagrees with you is angry and irrational. I'm very calm, but I think you're wrong. Just because someone got offended, that doesn't make it everyone else's problem. Publishing photos of people along with transcripts of their private conversation is highly intrusive, and should only be done in extreme circumstances. A dick joke does not qualify.
  - h2s 14y ago
    I wasn't talking about what Adria did. I agree with the consensus that she fucked up. I was talking about the fact that it's possible to be blinded by privilege and accidentally make remarks that really undermine the sense of belonging and safety of somebody with less privilege than you.
afqwerqeq 14y ago
While what you say is true, there's no reason for everyone to have to bear the burden of a few people's irrational fears. I don't know were the dividing line should be, but overheard undirected conversation doesn't seem like a reasonable threat to me. Adira was perfectly within her rights to complain to the conference organisers about rule breaking behaviour that was annoying her. The twitter shaming and blog post about harassment was a bit overboard though.
ErrantX 14y ago
Oh piffle, the whole "why do you, as a guy" rhetoric is even worse. Although, for what it is worth, I have volunteered in a women's shelter for many years, so have a wealth of empirical information to draw on. What you're doing, though, is taking one issue and turning into a much more "serious" one (I use that term loosely, neither sexual discomfort nor sexual violence should be taken lightly). Yes, sexualisation of professional situations is a problem (at least, it quite often is). As I noted, this applies to both male and female top-heavy environments. But the issue isn't really about fear of sexual violence, that simply does not match up with reality. I agree, some women are sensitive to these sorts of conversations. And they can be triggers for them which lead to fear. But more important is the much larger majority of women for whom this conversations "merely" (again, using the term loosely) degrades them as an individual. Hence me objecting to your casting of this issue as a major problem r.e. threat of violence. 99.9999% of the people making these comments are not about to commit sexual violence, and the vast majority of women (and, yes, men) being subjected to it are not in fear for themselves. By casting it as you have, you've undermined the issue. And you're initial phrasing itself sounded patronising and degrading (although obviously not your intention). EDIT: p.s. it's Adria not Adira.