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As a SendGrid customer, it concerns me that SendGrid would stand behind the initiation of a public controversy under such questionable circumstances, especially

As a SendGrid customer, it concerns me that SendGrid would stand behind the initiation of a public controversy under such questionable circumstances, especially one that resulted in the firing of a developer from his job. SendGrid should be in the business of email deliverability, not public shaming. Edit: I've tempered my phrasing above quite a bit and removed references to individuals.

btilly 14y ago
If my reading of her account is correct, the person who got fired was suggestion that Adria "check out his big dongle" which is a very explicit sexual joke directed at a specific stranger (her). The joke that she's making there is that her male friend should stuff socks in his pants to shock the screening TSA agent. This joke is not targeted at anyone in particular. The comment she's replying to is a factual description of what actually happens in TSA screenings. In fact it is suspected by many that the TSA agents do this deliberately so that people will be discouraged from asking for the alternative screening. The whole situation has a "he said, she said" feeling about it. But if everything that I just read is factually correct (not at all guaranteed), then she had something real to complain about. Making the offence result in a firing seems to me to be an overreaction.
- peterhunt 14y ago
  This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening.
  - btilly 14y ago
    This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening. Are you sure? How do you know? If my reading of her article is correct, and she was telling the truth, then she did not think so. That does not mean that she was correct. And with a he said, she said situation there is no chance of sorting things out. But your unsupported assertion of fact is not necessarily true. Her article is at http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... if you want to read it to decide for yourself whether I am reading correctly. Here is the scenario that I read from her description. She's sitting one in front. 3 guys are behind and (if she is turned) to her right. Guy #1 who is behind is talking about a presentation, she turns and agrees with him, and during their discussion he talks about forking a repository. Guy #2 is to #1's left (on the right from her view), and begins making sexual jokes about forking with #3 riffing off of that. Then shortly after they riff off of a comment from the speaker and joke, "You can thank me" then start talking about big dongles. Therefore their sexual jokes were based off of their overhearing HER conversation, and so they had every expectation that SHE would hear THEM in turn. Furthermore I get the impression that even though she was not looking at them, she believed that they were implicitly ADDRESSING HER. (I am not saying that this belief is correct, merely that this is my impression of the situation as she remembered and described it.) If so, then in no way that she would have believed that this was a private conversation. Nor is it tenable that they were accidentally overheard by her. Nor is it a surprise that she took it personally. Of course we all adjust memories of things that happened to be clearer cut than they were. There was a lot going on. I was not there - she may have misunderstood the interaction. But what she described is both a plausible scenario, and one in which her upset makes quite a bit of sense to me. And one which runs absolutely counter to the narrative that this was simply a private conversation that she accidentally overheard and overreacted to.
    - ulyssesgrant 14y ago
      Don't you think you're reading between the lines a bit too much here? Don't you think that if Adria really felt they were addressing her, she would have explicitly stated that as it would completely change the context of the situation?
      - btilly 14y ago
        I actually don't think that I am reading too much here. If Adria had not felt personally singled out and targeted, why would she (as described) have been blushing? The fact that she felt that does not mean that she was - but the feeling is relevant to her subsequent actions. What makes it all even trickier is that it is wrapped up in joking. Jokes can run all the way from light playing around with language, to allowing you to say things that you'd never be allowed to say directly. Where you are on that spectrum can be hard to tell. Often even people who are present will sharply disagree on where a particular joke was on that spectrum. And that is normal people. Geeks are not known for being the best with social cues, even when you don't think about those of us with Asperger's. Which leads me back to what I was saying. Adria seems to have felt personally targeted. Quite possibly she was. Quite possibly she was wrong. But as long as it is plausible that she was correct, I simply can't support the lynch mob here. Though - as I've said before - unless the man in question had prior history with his employer, firing him was a management mistake. That said, I've personally encountered more "prior history" cases than managers who would make that bad management mistake. Which says that his firing suggests that there was a prior history. And if there were a prior history, then the odds that Adria was reading the situation correctly go up.
- katbyte 14y ago
  as i understand it, he did not say to her, he said it top his friend next to him unaware she was sitting there listening to their conversation.
  - btilly 14y ago
    As she described it, he and his friend began their joking in response to her conversation to the man sitting next to them. So they were quite aware that she was there, had every reason to believe that she would be paying attention, and she had cause to believe that she was implicitly addressed. She may have misunderstood the situation, or inaccurately described it. But that was my understanding of the description that I read. (Yes, I know that it is unfashionable to actually read what the main participants say happened and develop your own opinions. And dangerous to do so when pitchforks are out. But I am weird that way.)
    - katbyte 14y ago
      the forking joke yea, but that was even more benign, the dongle joke occurred afterwards after i assume some time had passed.
      - btilly 14y ago
        Why do you assume that some time had passed? I did not get that impression from her article. (But it is not specified either way, so time might have passed.)
        katbyte 14y ago
        in her article: >Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”. >They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered So it seems that from the forking thing to the dongle thing there was at least 30-60 seconds, enough time to consider the person who turned around to interject into your conversation no out of it and no longer listening to every word your saying.

btilly 14y ago

If my reading of her account is correct, the person who got fired was suggestion that Adria "check out his big dongle" which is a very explicit sexual joke directed at a specific stranger (her). The joke that she's making there is that her male friend should stuff socks in his pants to shock the screening TSA agent. This joke is not targeted at anyone in particular. The comment she's replying to is a factual description of what actually happens in TSA screenings. In fact it is suspected by many that the TSA agents do this deliberately so that people will be discouraged from asking for the alternative screening. The whole situation has a "he said, she said" feeling about it. But if everything that I just read is factually correct (not at all guaranteed), then she had something real to complain about. Making the offence result in a firing seems to me to be an overreaction.

peterhunt 14y ago
This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening.
- btilly 14y ago
  This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening. Are you sure? How do you know? If my reading of her article is correct, and she was telling the truth, then she did not think so. That does not mean that she was correct. And with a he said, she said situation there is no chance of sorting things out. But your unsupported assertion of fact is not necessarily true. Her article is at http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... if you want to read it to decide for yourself whether I am reading correctly. Here is the scenario that I read from her description. She's sitting one in front. 3 guys are behind and (if she is turned) to her right. Guy #1 who is behind is talking about a presentation, she turns and agrees with him, and during their discussion he talks about forking a repository. Guy #2 is to #1's left (on the right from her view), and begins making sexual jokes about forking with #3 riffing off of that. Then shortly after they riff off of a comment from the speaker and joke, "You can thank me" then start talking about big dongles. Therefore their sexual jokes were based off of their overhearing HER conversation, and so they had every expectation that SHE would hear THEM in turn. Furthermore I get the impression that even though she was not looking at them, she believed that they were implicitly ADDRESSING HER. (I am not saying that this belief is correct, merely that this is my impression of the situation as she remembered and described it.) If so, then in no way that she would have believed that this was a private conversation. Nor is it tenable that they were accidentally overheard by her. Nor is it a surprise that she took it personally. Of course we all adjust memories of things that happened to be clearer cut than they were. There was a lot going on. I was not there - she may have misunderstood the interaction. But what she described is both a plausible scenario, and one in which her upset makes quite a bit of sense to me. And one which runs absolutely counter to the narrative that this was simply a private conversation that she accidentally overheard and overreacted to.
  - ulyssesgrant 14y ago
    Don't you think you're reading between the lines a bit too much here? Don't you think that if Adria really felt they were addressing her, she would have explicitly stated that as it would completely change the context of the situation?
    - btilly 14y ago
      I actually don't think that I am reading too much here. If Adria had not felt personally singled out and targeted, why would she (as described) have been blushing? The fact that she felt that does not mean that she was - but the feeling is relevant to her subsequent actions. What makes it all even trickier is that it is wrapped up in joking. Jokes can run all the way from light playing around with language, to allowing you to say things that you'd never be allowed to say directly. Where you are on that spectrum can be hard to tell. Often even people who are present will sharply disagree on where a particular joke was on that spectrum. And that is normal people. Geeks are not known for being the best with social cues, even when you don't think about those of us with Asperger's. Which leads me back to what I was saying. Adria seems to have felt personally targeted. Quite possibly she was. Quite possibly she was wrong. But as long as it is plausible that she was correct, I simply can't support the lynch mob here. Though - as I've said before - unless the man in question had prior history with his employer, firing him was a management mistake. That said, I've personally encountered more "prior history" cases than managers who would make that bad management mistake. Which says that his firing suggests that there was a prior history. And if there were a prior history, then the odds that Adria was reading the situation correctly go up.
katbyte 14y ago
as i understand it, he did not say to her, he said it top his friend next to him unaware she was sitting there listening to their conversation.
- btilly 14y ago
  As she described it, he and his friend began their joking in response to her conversation to the man sitting next to them. So they were quite aware that she was there, had every reason to believe that she would be paying attention, and she had cause to believe that she was implicitly addressed. She may have misunderstood the situation, or inaccurately described it. But that was my understanding of the description that I read. (Yes, I know that it is unfashionable to actually read what the main participants say happened and develop your own opinions. And dangerous to do so when pitchforks are out. But I am weird that way.)
  - katbyte 14y ago
    the forking joke yea, but that was even more benign, the dongle joke occurred afterwards after i assume some time had passed.
    - btilly 14y ago
      Why do you assume that some time had passed? I did not get that impression from her article. (But it is not specified either way, so time might have passed.)
      - katbyte 14y ago
        in her article: >Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”. >They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered So it seems that from the forking thing to the dongle thing there was at least 30-60 seconds, enough time to consider the person who turned around to interject into your conversation no out of it and no longer listening to every word your saying.