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> Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Because it usually just leads to stigma against the person who speaks up an

> Why didn't she just stand up and say something in a loud and authoritative voice? Because it usually just leads to stigma against the person who speaks up and rarely yields actual change since most people just ignore it or rapidly justify it and minimize what happened and then immediately move on with their lives. You'd know this if you've ever had to deal with this type of thing in a room full of men. Turns out, if you make a big deal out of something, people get angry at you for making a bigger deal out of it. If you make a small deal out of something, people ignore you. There's no good answer. Each person has to decide how they want to address the issue in their own way. > This was not an eye for an eye. There's no way to do eye for an eye when you're not on a level playing field and women in tech aren't.

josh2600 14y ago
I don't think it's ok to just say "she's a woman so she automatically will be crucified if she speaks up". To me that's much more damaging than the initial sentiment of speaking up in the first place and the potential damage therein. I believe that you're perpetuating the idea that women aren't on a level playing field by repeating that point. Whether or not it's true, repeating it does nothing to solve the problem. Whereas my points offered a potential way to alternatively address the situation, yours seem to throw your hands up in the air and say "gee this is pretty bad huh. Somebody should really clean that up...". In short, what would you say should've been done if being loud or being quiet have negative consequences?
- djcapelis 14y ago
  > I don't think it's ok to just say "she's a woman so she automatically will be crucified if she speaks up" That is in fact not what I said. What I said was more along the lines that you're in a bad position to be giving advice on what women should do when they encounter this situation. (And for what it's worth, if you were a woman (which I made the assumption from your username that you weren't, feel free to correct me) I would write the same thing except I would say "other women". I don't think it's terribly productive for anyone to spend a lot of time telling someone else how to raise a point in a situation they weren't a party to.) > I believe that you're perpetuating the idea that women aren't on a level playing field by repeating that point. I happen to know that women are not on a level playing field in tech and I happen to chose not to pretend like the world is a different place than it is. > what would you say should've been done if being loud or being quiet have negative consequences? I think it's important to respect an individual's choice in terms of how they react to dealing with a situation they find problematic. Which isn't to say someone's actions can't be questioned, but engaging in a discussion of how you think someone that isn't you and who was in a situation you weren't in should have gone about raising a point seems a lot less useful than actually addressing the point they were trying to raise.
obstacle1 14y ago
She had a problem with what the men said. A personal problem. Hers alone. So she should have addressed the problem on her own behalf. Had she stood up and said something TO the perpetrators, one of two things would have happened: they would have stopped the offensive behavior, or they would have ignored her and continued. If the former, she wins because the behavior that offends her stops; if the latter, she wins because she can take her complaint to conference organizers and have them kicked out, ending her problem. The latter case has the extra benefit of making the guys look like complete assholes for ignoring her, and would likely gain her sympathy from lookers-on. Instead we have her comparing herself to Joan of Arc and claiming to have started this passive-aggressive witch hunt in the name of All Future Girl/Female Programmers Ever. It is hard to describe how much this kind of thing sets back tech culture. One step forward...
katbyte 14y ago
> Turns out, if you make a big deal out of something, people get angry at you for making a bigger deal out of it. If you make a small deal out of something, people ignore you. She made a huge deal out out of it by posting it to twitter, publicly shaming them and getting them fired, very disproportional to the offense. She could have just reported it to the conference staff and it would have ended there unless they continued. > There's no way to do eye for an eye when you're not on a level playing field and women in tech aren't. Now as i women in tech am i in a better or worse position because now everyone going to worry about what they say around me and hold off on those pesky jokes (that don't bother me) or not hired me because they don't want to deal with what i may do if offended....

josh2600 14y ago

I don't think it's ok to just say "she's a woman so she automatically will be crucified if she speaks up". To me that's much more damaging than the initial sentiment of speaking up in the first place and the potential damage therein. I believe that you're perpetuating the idea that women aren't on a level playing field by repeating that point. Whether or not it's true, repeating it does nothing to solve the problem. Whereas my points offered a potential way to alternatively address the situation, yours seem to throw your hands up in the air and say "gee this is pretty bad huh. Somebody should really clean that up...". In short, what would you say should've been done if being loud or being quiet have negative consequences?

djcapelis 14y ago
> I don't think it's ok to just say "she's a woman so she automatically will be crucified if she speaks up" That is in fact not what I said. What I said was more along the lines that you're in a bad position to be giving advice on what women should do when they encounter this situation. (And for what it's worth, if you were a woman (which I made the assumption from your username that you weren't, feel free to correct me) I would write the same thing except I would say "other women". I don't think it's terribly productive for anyone to spend a lot of time telling someone else how to raise a point in a situation they weren't a party to.) > I believe that you're perpetuating the idea that women aren't on a level playing field by repeating that point. I happen to know that women are not on a level playing field in tech and I happen to chose not to pretend like the world is a different place than it is. > what would you say should've been done if being loud or being quiet have negative consequences? I think it's important to respect an individual's choice in terms of how they react to dealing with a situation they find problematic. Which isn't to say someone's actions can't be questioned, but engaging in a discussion of how you think someone that isn't you and who was in a situation you weren't in should have gone about raising a point seems a lot less useful than actually addressing the point they were trying to raise.

obstacle1 14y ago

She had a problem with what the men said. A personal problem. Hers alone. So she should have addressed the problem on her own behalf. Had she stood up and said something TO the perpetrators, one of two things would have happened: they would have stopped the offensive behavior, or they would have ignored her and continued. If the former, she wins because the behavior that offends her stops; if the latter, she wins because she can take her complaint to conference organizers and have them kicked out, ending her problem. The latter case has the extra benefit of making the guys look like complete assholes for ignoring her, and would likely gain her sympathy from lookers-on. Instead we have her comparing herself to Joan of Arc and claiming to have started this passive-aggressive witch hunt in the name of All Future Girl/Female Programmers Ever. It is hard to describe how much this kind of thing sets back tech culture. One step forward...

katbyte 14y ago

> Turns out, if you make a big deal out of something, people get angry at you for making a bigger deal out of it. If you make a small deal out of something, people ignore you. She made a huge deal out out of it by posting it to twitter, publicly shaming them and getting them fired, very disproportional to the offense. She could have just reported it to the conference staff and it would have ended there unless they continued. > There's no way to do eye for an eye when you're not on a level playing field and women in tech aren't. Now as i women in tech am i in a better or worse position because now everyone going to worry about what they say around me and hold off on those pesky jokes (that don't bother me) or not hired me because they don't want to deal with what i may do if offended....